alcohol

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ok, so alcohol is forbidden in islam... but so is pre-marital sex and a myriad of other things. yet, there seems to be a bigger stigma against alcohol than anything. Example: i had one of my few muslim friends over with a few of the christian and buddhist friends and i had alcohol here (I no longer drink btw) - mainly wine - for my friends and my grandparents. the muslim friend felt so uncomfortable (even though the most someone drank was 2 glasses in a few hrs time) that he left soon after and he was upset all night. but, he dates and does some non-islamic things and is quite liberal and "western" in a lot of ways. i just dont get it. these guys i know can watch porns, date, etc., but cant even watch others (non-muslims no less) drink wine. why the stigma???? rumi could talk about wine in his poems!

ok, then to dispell some myths:
1.) not all christians drink
2.) if you drink, you are not necessarily an alcoholic
3.) there are many TYPES of alcoholism... funtioning, bindge, etc.
4.) even among alcoholics, it is very possible to never have had a hangover, blackout, passout or have done anything stupid
5.) some alcoholics never look or act drunk
6.) tollerance differs from person to person based on A LOT of factors including the food they ate, family history, genetic makeup, weight, sex, etc.
7.) not all alcohol tastes bad

there are lots more i have seen all over this site, but i'll stop there. :)

btw, you can get drunk off of water too.

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For reference, intoxication or wine are mentioned in the following places in the Qur'an. For the sake of brevity and avoiding arguments about translation (since we have multiple sects here) I will just provide the numbers: 2:219 , 4:43, 5:90, 5:91 ; Intoxication is also mentioned 15:072, 37:47, and 56:19. "intoxicated" is mentioned in another context at 15:15. If you have not done so, I urge anyone wiht a passing interest in studying the Qur'an to pick up the Cason, El-Fadl, and Walker "exhaustive concordance" (based on Yusuf Ali's translation to english) or Al-Baqi's arabic-root concordance (maj'uam? maj'uam? I can't figure out how to transliterate it). Both are way useful.

The Ta'lil of the prohibition on alcohol is irrelevant. It is, none the less, prohibited. -jcw

Rumi was only kidding? #:

DAMN! *:

Yes, Rumi's reference to wine is allegorical... but in the early days of Islam - wine and alcohol were not prohibited...later on, when Muslims had enough of a following to impact politics - the home economy was starting to dwindle, people were unable to export goods etc.... Wine was considered a luxury that was imported... As alliances with other groups of people/nations were being created and destroyed, is when the consumption of wine became prohibited... It was more a political move rather than a spiritual one, but could be disguised as such since "in spirits, there is more harm than good."

Not prohibiting it, but looking down on excessive consumption....

Rumi's reference to wine is almost certainly allegorical, as is khayyam's and Hafiz-e shirazi. The same can be said for the almost homoerotic references to the "saqi". There is an LD50 as associated indications approaching the LD50 for most substances that appear in our bodies. The brain produces chemicals similar to LSD, DMT, THC, Morphine, and any number of Phenethylamins. Our livers convert nutmeg to trace amounts of MDA (the club-drug that drove club54. That does not make these things permissible. Prior to my conversion I was an avid drinker, after going sober and trying a beer it occured to me that one beer DOES have an effect on me. I would have never noticed this effect as a regular consumer of alcohol. There is no reasoning around the FACT that alcohol in any significant quantity does have an influence on our state of mind and is forbidden. I for one would not even attempt to approach these limits set by Allah. Also, I have known more than a few fornicating drunkard muslims that stayed the heck away from pork. It's seemingly universal that pork is avoided, and I would probably place its consumption well above booze and schtupping on the "no no" list for most muslims.

I agree.

If anything, red wine makes you feel closer to God...

It's one of those learned aversions.... Its been hammered into peoples' subconcious for so long that it triggers a reaction.... I admit, I can't stand the smell of sausage.... red wine on the other handd....... P: P: P:

paradise - that is exactly what i was talking about - and i just dont get it at all. there is this "natural responce" that comes not from the act or product itself, but simply from being raised a muslim and told it is haram... this great aversion to pork and alcohol as if it is worse than murder and i just dont see the logic. i have an aversion to guns. they make me cringe and i have trouble holding one because they kill people and i don;t know how to use one properly. i have an aversion to tequila because i drank too much years ago and the smell of it reminds me of that night. i have an aversion to bell peppers because i once threw them up all night and they remind me of that.... those make sense. there is reason behind them... but for someone who has never tried alcohol or pork to be sooooooo against it like it is the plague - i dont get it at all.

Drinking alcohol to me is just like eating pork. I would get the same feeling if I consumed either: one of natural revulsion. This "automatic" response is a result of what has been taught to me from my religious father since I was a child: That we, as Muslims, are supposed to abstain from drinking alcohol and eating pork. So the two are one in the same for me.

shazia, here's what i know about why 2 women witnesses are needed: women in the past were harder to track down becuase when they got/get married they usually go off to become part of the husband's family. as a result, trying to get a hold of a women witness would be a little more difficult....having two would make things easier. im sure there's a wisdom in it that we may not be aware of and i would like think it has nothing to do w/ women being less than men in the eyes of God. mchowdry, i believe the word intoxicant is used and wine is definately used in the verse i was refering to and the verse you were refering to. just like i like to tell some really religious folk to not take things litterally, it works both ways. God doesnt have to explicitly say "Alcohol is Haraam".....its implied...im not even sure haram is used much in the Quran...its a label we later added to all forbidden things. And if you use the Prophet (saws) as an example, i don't recall ever hearing he drank alcohol.

too many faces. i know you are happy they are blue, but calm down hun. :)

the segregation and humiliation of women also occurs in the world of Golf (H)

you know, the segregation and humiliation of women doesn't only occur in the world of the Taleban (A) (side note: imagine this discussion in afganistan between their young adults ? ;) Actually, what would our equivalents in afganistan talking about :# )...

The Enlightenment (whose fruits we all enjoy today) came about from mainly middle-aged, rich, white guys with funny wigs :D

shazia04: Well saying that most of the scholars were male and their gender would have influenced them defining sharia laws is too much of a generalization (Only on the topics that were not straightforward and required Consensus). Instead of rushing to such conclusions, it would be useful to rather evaluate rulings made by male scholars against considering if there were any female scholars with the same level of intellect coming to the same conclusion or something else. Well, if we can't bring a person with that level of intellect, it is useless for us to just sit here and contemplate on validity of their decision.

-:- Pez Despenser, LOL...... Yeah too bad he was hot...

I was bestowed with good luck today!!! :D

Strongbeliever: interpretation by its very nature is subjective though isn't it? And do you think that the common interpretation of the Qu'ran and what it says about women may well have been influenced by the fact that the scholars were male, at a time when women's role in society was very strictly bound?

I think it is time for me to post my Wisdom of the Idiots entry.... it deals with intention, action etc....

On a personal note, I do respect a Muslim who actually displayed *some* will power over one who didn't... I.e the person who didn't drink but did sleep around is actualy got the will power to not drink vs one who drinks and sleeps around.

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alcohol

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