if that link no work try www.radio4all.net

and why does this happen in an apparently enlightened society that the west claims to be? -- well i think its the hubris of science - its all just cause and effect and when the effect befalls you we have the power to reverse

but that is precisely the point - if you get sick its your fault you didnt exercise or eat right etc -- of course maybe true - but that is only 1/2 of the equation - what about all the chemicals the corps have been releasing into the env?
www.radio4all.net program_id=17047& nav=&

its all about making money and yes i can lay blame in that the Protestant Christians have given cart blanch for the corporations to do what they want - anyone heard of ethics of course not its just lip service - the Hippocratic oath of the doctors should be when you are sick i am going to make the most money from you - in fact the more sick and desperate you are the more money i make - its not about curing people - its about making money -- now again i mean the industry and not the individual doctors who i am sure are very caring albeit mislead - misseducated people who when they do try and think out of the box are ostracized -- again the point is not look how far we have advanced - the point is about the cure over prevention and how do we get sick -- do we really need nanoparticles? what about labeling products that contain carcinogens in north america so people can avoid using them wouldnt that cut the risk dramatically -- is it too simple an idea or is it too complicated cause the corporations would not want to go along with it -- think of all the law suits - for all these years you have been adding known carcinogens to your product and not informed us - class action law suit - go back to the doctors i am sure they dont even know -- i am certain they are not taught this in Med School -- more and more is pointing to environmental conditions -- and the industry knew this decades ago but unfortunately let it go -- why for $$ naturally - for example when did they know that smog was a direct result of the car? in the 1940's and we see that there was no pressure by medical industry upon the auto industry upon government ... its about pharmaceuticals being discovered in our drinking water -- its about fire-retardent being in breast milk and the list goes on -- people survived in the short run AB but their genes changed and this is passed on to future generations ...

and who pays for the Pharma research and development - the public purse - and then you pay again every time you get your prescription filled ... so JJ you dont have to blame them for making money - but i do - and for more than making money - making me sick

oh really. I didnt know that. That gives me hope.
You know I worry too much about pollution and running out of resources like gas. I should worry less and enjoy life more, lol.

welll, I'm sure the breathing air panic was in a polluted city like Los Angeles etc, which has a lot of smog. There's sense, there are more and more pollutants in the air now. So maybe that only had to do with a polluted city.

hey QL, look how modern medicine helps! This just came in: news.yahoo.com
Study uses nanoparticles to kill cancer cells

"WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Researchers have found a way to target cancer cells by injecting tiny particles that will attack only the diseased cells while leaving healthy cells unscathed, according to a study released on Monday."

Hows THAT for a thumbsup for Western medicine? There's no technique you'll find 200 -300 years ago or holistic methods or anything else that can do this. These medical people are there to make money, thats it. Its a job. If people dont care about their own health and get more cancer, thats their fault, not the pharmas. What do you think?

I mean they're on the way, they're always progressing to find new and better cures.

QL,
Haan ji I agree. I'm too lazy to read this one link you sent me: www.soilandhealth.org
Can you give a real brief summary of the important points ? Is this e.g. blaming the government etc? I mean whats it about?

The other link: www.cbc.ca

I read this one. Hm.! So you're right, they want prevention more than the cure. Cancer in Canadian society has reached high levels and the Pharma companies are more than happy to give a cure, they're happy about the "cancer business"

But QL ji - they are out to make money, who can blame them? They're not doing anything wrong. No one would work for free to try to prevent cancer. There has to be a government organization maybe, who would try to do this.

If the people are too lazy to do anything to prevent themselves from getting cancer etc - I think they're the only one to blame. What do you say?

na, this is a place to think out loud and share ... we all have knowledge to bring and its important to participate in construction of Truth rather than have 'truth' construct us ...

Qal,
Hmm I think you guys are definitely more knowledgable on this subject of medicine. All I know about medicine is I get a headache and take Advil. You guys might have a valid point but its beyond my comprehension :) but it is intersting, I wish we knew the truth clearly.
Thanks for the links! I'll try to read up on them.

peace AB and JJ -- thanks for your wonderful comments

like AB said in another post "Invariably, the people's reactions to this idea are mixed. Some immediately see the connection; some immediately reject the idea"

AB thanks for your joke about antidepressants don't make people hornier - ur right - i guess - but i was talking about the adverts for AD and then for products that help with ED - which may soon turn out to be a disease as well like Acid Reflux

if you want to know more about the issue look up the history of western medicine -- but you will have to look up those who are producing an alternative history from what we get normally - i suggested Barbara Ehrenreich and Deirdre English's book For Her Own Good:
150 Years of the Expert's Advice to Women - as one example --
did a search and believe i found the relevant chapter -- www.soilandhealth.org

it is important to seek out others who are critical of what we know rather than those who are saying the same old story -- think of Howard Zinn for example and others who tell the story from another point of view -- you may not agree but it is important to have both sides of the knowledge coin so to speak...

i wont go into your points here like AB said above - if you want to know more - you will find it -- if you are comfortable with your point of view fair enough ....

leave you with another link regarding the interface between Medicine and the Pharma's and Corporations
there is lots out there if you look ... www.cbc.ca

as far as offering alternatives i fear that it is the case that we are always & already trapped ....

peace out

AB,
"The only danger that I perceive is the role of omnipotency and infallibility associated with medicines which is growing at an alarming rate."

hmm, interesting. I dont know much about that so cant comment.

Qal, I just wanted to say that I'm more interested in hearing from you the other things from 200 or 300 eyars ago you mentioned and other alternative techqniues so I look forward to that. I dont know much about the faults of western medicine, all I know is as I said, they've helped increase life expenctancy and reduce diseases. Certainly the world was a sicker place as we go back into history. For example people used to lose their teeth when they got old. Now they can keep them (if they do regular dental checkups and treatments etc).

hello Qalandarlal

you wrote:
"if you look at the history of medicine first it decided to negate all the knowledge bases of healing that existed say 200-300 years ago"

What were those knowledge bases? I'm not aware of history so educate me if you dont mind. I dont see any reason why scientists would abandon something that worked before.

"but even more than that look at how giving birth has been turned into a medical procedure"

Infant mortality rate is low in the West. What do you think the reason is? Look at the Infant mortality rate here: www.geographyiq.com
Its all western and modernized societies which have lower rates. Its not a coincindence.


But I see the point you're trying to make about the pharma and stuff - I'm not too knowledgdgeable about it and its not my favourite topic since I dont know enough about it (am not into the medical field).

"did you know that diabetes was virtually unheard of in teh early part of the 20th century"

In old days, we also used to have shorter life spans and more diseases. Its because of modern medicine that we have fewer diseases and longer life. This is my main point.


"those who are critical of the medical industry will say that it is the amount of refined sugars we have in our diets -- again my point is that rather than looking for prevention it seems that western medicine is promoting the cure - keep the lifestyle the same and we will give you the fix"

You may be right, but, everyone also promotes healthy diet.


"lastly one more observation -- if western medicine was so great why are we getting unhealthier"

Life expectancy is higher in Western countries. Weight problem is a separate issue- people just eat more here. Believe me, if our countries were rich and everyone could eat what they wanted to, we would have higher rate of weight problems there too. Instead Pakistan is a 3rd world country. I dont have the stats but I'm thinking the weight problem in Pak is lower than in the US.

"i suppose i am a proponent of holistic medicine and believe in the power of the mind to affect and effect the body"

That is a good thought. When its proven that holistic medicines works better and is easily available, there's no reason people will start using it.

But if you have lung cancer or other diseases, the power of the mind cant do anything about it. You have to resort to the tools we have.

People will definitely take up new techniques in medicine if it works. Thats what research is all about.

i am not trying to say that it is a west vs east dilemma - i suppose the easiest way to understand the distinction i am trying to make is when you investigate the history of the modern development of psychology you will see that in the effort to become more 'scientific' and hence acceptable as worthy of knowledge human-beings became objects of study not much different from other objects of study ....

i liked your joke about the side-effects - that was fantastic -- gave me a good chuckle

if you look at the history of medicine first it decided to negate all the knowledge bases of healing that existed say 200-300 years ago and went for chemical cures over herbal and cures over prevention - and it is only recently that western medicine has taken natural remedies more seriously --

but even more than that look at how giving birth has been turned into a medical procedure and the fight that midwives have had to mount in order to perform so-called natural births - it is about the power of the profession to take over what has been traditional systems of knowledge without advancing them necessarily and absorbing them into its own framework -- if you want more info about this read "for her own good" by Barbra Erinrich (not sure about the spelling)

ok moving along another point and example are when medical problems like acid reflux which has now apparently become a disease - what a disease? you can catch it now? imagine that but dont worry we have the cure - take this pill or this liquid - rather than suggesting that diet has something to do with it - again i am not talking about individual cases - i am talking about the industry -- did you ever notice all the pharma adds during the tv broadcast of the news ?? people are going to feel depressed about what is happening in the world so we will puch anti-deprecents and other pills that will make them horny and forget their blues...

did you know that diabetes was virtually unheard of in teh early part of the 20th century - why the increase all of a sudden? those who are critical of the medical industry will say that it is the amount of refined sugars we have in our diets -- again my point is that rather than looking for prevention it seems that western medicine is promoting the cure - keep the lifestyle the same and we will give you the fix --

now i realize that these are large sweeping comments and i myself am generalizing --

lastly one more observation -- if western medicine was so great why are we getting unhealthier -- sure some would point to environmental conditions - others would argue that it is cure one thing and by that treatment cause something else as long as you keep the life style and that is tied into a range of other issues and big business...


i am not suggesting that western medicine is all bad and needs to be trashed or that there are not advances that it has made ... i suppose i am a proponent of holistic medicine and believe in the power of the mind to affect and effect the body - something that science has a hard time dealing with ....

oh yeah one more thing antibiotics giving them to cows and chickens and over prescribing them to people is something that is a societal problem and as far as i am concerned a bad call by the medical & scientific & agro industry .... in the end my critique is not so much about the individual cases of medicine helping people or the achievements of science as much as its effect upon society as a whole ...

and lastly this all hinges on your conceptualization of progress

i have yet to see Bleep and its sequal rabit hole ... looking forward to seeing it sometime soon

peace out!

I'm sorry! oops, typo error. Its called
"What the Bleep do we know"

hey Qalandar Lal, I found an article which takes your side:
-----------
No single, essential difference separates human beings from other animals.' So began a feature article on evolution in TIME magazine ('How Man Began', March 14, 1994). The more I thought about this sweeping statement the more I began to warm to it.
-----------

I havent read the article fully yet, will do later:
link

I wont debate on evolution as I'm not good on that topic :D but that article might be good for your side of the argument.

what's it called again "what the bellp?"

AB, you might have seen that movie too "What the bellp do we know", if not I highly recommend it. Infact I'll make a new thread for it. Everyone should see that movie, its very good for mental health.

QalandarLal

Your following statement:
"what is needed i believe is a new conceptualization of human study"

was most interesting to me. Well, can you expand on that? What would these new studies be like? Thats the hard question now.

you wrote:
"western science classifies human-beings under the category of animal"

I cant agree fully with that. Important differences exist between humans and animals - we have developed languages for example and are much more aware. From the web on Wikepedia on "Human":

----------------
Humans have a highly developed brain capable of abstract reasoning, language, and introspection. This, combined with an erect body carriage that frees their upper limbs for manipulating objects, has allowed humans to make greater use of tools than any other species of animal. en.wikipedia.org
----------------

See, humans are not classified as animals. If we were, we would be living like apes (evolution is a seperate topic) - naked and wild etc.

Qalandarlal my friend, you're being critical of western achievements in medicine. Look at what our own countries have contributed to the study of human behavior. Nothing, right? At least the west did SOMETHING - atleast they are trying and have even succeeded to some extent. You say their medicines have sideffects. If you allow me to joke, our countries have medicines which have NO effects because they dont even exist. Comparatively speaking ofcourse, if our countries have done any research, its peanuts as compared to Western achievements. Lets not also blame why we havent succeeded - thats a different topic too.

And also my friend, even if you put western medicine on the side, there are so many things the West has achieved on the cognitive level. All types of studies and research have been done. Knowledge, I mean - its obvious these people are much more knowledgable on mental health affairs than people in our countries.

Psychotherapy and hypnosis and so many more things are there which the West has found out and become an expert on.

Again, you're pointing fingers at Western medicine and talking about its side effects - look at what our countries have done. In Pakistan we have "german health centers" and "hakeems" and even Magicians claiming to fix things - what are these? They are nothing, as compared to Western stuff.

Dont follow the traditional thought in our cultures and hate the West. Appreciate them for the good things they have done. Sure there are bad things in this society, perfectionism, alcoholism (though spotty) and weight problems. These may be some problems. No society is perfect.

With time, our cultures will also learn and become succesful in the end.

As I mentioned in the begining, I'm most interested to hear your futher thoughts about what you said:

"what is needed i believe is a new conceptualization of human study"

Oh, did you watch the movie "What the bleep do we know?" Watch it, its a great movie on Mental health - gives us some new ideas. I learnt many things from it and will watch it again. Who in our cultures makes movies like this? No one.

peace
i suppose what i dislike about the way science applies to the study of human-beings is the generalizability factor - it seems to me that it makes human beings too mechanistic and inanimate esp when it comes to understanding/describing/observing a reality such as behaviors actions motivations of human-beings - and this is why i agreed with Breeze - but science is already a mix of philosophy - what is needed i believe is a new conceptualization of human study - science has had a long history well the past 500 yrs or so of generalizability and replicability where as human beings are individuals - Jazzy its not that we dont learn new things - its what we learn - what our hypothesis are as well as our assumptions and what science 'looks for' - like for example the whole western medicine approach to cure over prevention and the rise of the bigPharma Corps and the impact that has on society - childrens Tylenol Rittlen for ADT children or the closing of Mental health institutions cause pills are supposed to be the fix -or the testing of drugs on mice and other animals which then have failed in humans and caused way bad side affects -or the way cancer is treated - for me science is like that story about hte person who has lost something inside their house its dark and they are looking all over for it then they see a light outside and they go out there and start looking - a friend comes by and says what are you doing person says i lost whatever and am looking for it - so the friend also starts helping to look after a few hours the friend says are you sure you lost it here - person says i lost it in my house - then what are you looking out here for?? person says the light is out here...