So very wrongly misinterpreted, Aragorn! I have loads of respect for the Pukhtun else 1) I would never have joined this village or 2) have stated my express views in the various JEs in this village. I am very honest and straight-forward, and will speak my mind on issues...no holds barred. I am an opinionated person! Some of my own good non-Naseeb friends are Pukhtun and some of my parents' really close friends are Pukhtun, so I am the last person on the planet to be so negative towards your people. Let's clarify that point first.

Next, I will say that despite me having respect for certain people on this village as far as HOW they voice their views (not so much as whether I agree or disagree) I WILL take offense when someone bites me or my own ethnicity in the butt. *Period!* So please let's be more mature in our discussions in the future without inserting unnecessary digs in postings such as "Punjabis (no offense Sophisty) and Karachiwalas say this kind of nonsense to make themselves feel better because they have never in their history ever had any victory of any kind against anyone." Hell, say whatever you wish about Karachiwalas, but gosh be darned if I hear anything about Punjabis. It's a small thing called ***SENSITIVITY*** which although you may want it expressed towards your people, also be prepared to provide it to others; it's a two-way street. Let's be very clear on that.

"Ok well sorry to burst everyone's bubble but I discussed this JE with someone and was enlightened that the main reason the Afghans won the war against the USSR is due to sniper missiles being given to them by the CIA..."

Translation:

"Sorry to wake you all up out of your fantasy world (that is what the phrase "burst your bubble" means), but All?h didn't help you people. The USA did. So stop saying All?h gave you some kind of victory against the Soviets. The CIA did..."

I'm sorry, but you getting so infuriated after that statement is a tad bit ridiculous. No one has ever tried to hide anything from you that I, or anyone else here, would show any "true colors". No one has tried to impress you in any way, so I think you need not say something as baseless as that.

Then in your response you say:

"I can say alot about the Pukhtun based on what I have ever heard in my life but I won't trash your people"

Translation:

"I heard you are all a bunch of ignorant beasts, but I am kind enough to mingle with you lowlifes. So don't you dare bite the hand that's kind enough to give you a doggy treat!"

Sis, you're a very nice girl and everyone likes you here, but this series of choices wasn't the wisest. If you go into an African-American group and say, "Sorry to burst your bubble, but you all were enslaved for 450 years because you couldn't stop warring with each other and selling each other to the white man.." you're not going to get any high fives for that.

Aragorn: The person is most definitely *****NOT***** a retard!!! Matter of fact, he is super well-versed in history of this area.

I am a proud Punjabi and come from gorgeous Punjab, fertile land of the good-hearted people. Your stab with the "no offense" disclaimer was still a stab and a pathetic one. I have only ever been civil about you Pukhtun but NOW I am seeing some true colors over here.

I can say alot about the Pukhtun based on what I have ever heard in my life but I won't trash your people: 1) it isn't polite or right and 2) it won't serve any purpose except to instigate an all-out, useless war!

However, keep in mind that I can only stay quiet for so dang long!!!!!!!!

So I suppose had the Afghans had driven out the Soviets with whips it would have been a true victory.

Punjabis (no offense Sophisty) and Karachiwalas say this kind of nonsense to make themselves feel better because they have never in their history ever had any victory of any kind against anyone.

That's like saying, well had it not been for steel forged in Damascus which the Castillians used they would have never been able to dislodge the Muslims from the Iberian Peninsula...so in reality the Muslims were the victorious ones in the Reconquista! Sure they were burned alive at the stakes but they made the steel used for the swords that killed them, darnit!

Just total nonsense only a fool would say (not talking about you Sophisty. Talking about the retard who told you that stuff).

Weapons are useless unless you have people behind them. Success came from Allah and not a missile. Even before stinger missiles came into the scene, the USSR was trying to negotiate a withdrawal on their terms. The afghans rejected because they wanted a withdrawal on their OWN terms. The USSR knew how pointless the war was, because while they controlled the air, they didn't control the ground. So what's the use of the war if you can't control the ground?

Ok well sorry to burst everyone's bubble but I discussed this JE with someone and was enlightened that the main reason the Afghans won the war against the USSR is due to sniper missiles being given to them by the CIA, that it's all well and good that the Afghans fought bravely and sacrificed their lives in the process but that the US backing had much to do with the Russians getting their buns kicked out of Afghanistan.

thanks Aragon for that wonderful and detailed explanation. one more thing and im not sure how true it is: i have heard from my elders that the name pathan is short for fatehaan which means conquerers and one of the reasons we were called fatehaans is that we conquered India.

Wow amazing! Thank you for the background. I will admit rather sheepishly that I don't know too much about the Mughals except a few things which are that 1) they brought the arts, architecture, culture, and conduct/tehzeeb to India 2) were definitely NOT true Muslims because like you stated, they loved sharab and making their beds with Hindu women (how demeaning to their own gorgeous women!) and 3) nepotism was widespread among them.

The rest of the information you are conveying is new to me so I thank you for sharing it. I honestly always thought that the Mughals were a mixed race of Mongols and Afghans...never knew until now that the Afghans ruled right before them and contributed so much to the region. I had not heard of Sher Shah Suri until you mentioned him so now, me being the way I am, am going to Google him and see if I can't find some books to read re: him and/or the Afghan/Pukhtun rule in India; if you know of any good books, please recommend.

Humayun is famous in history books for being a coward. I didn't know that Akbar was basically just as bad, twisting our faith to suit his own shameful purposes. What do you know about Babur (the originator of the Mughal dynasty)? Here is a link about him by the way: www.wsu.edu

There is a place in my ancestral home of Chakwal called Kalar Kahar; it's a salt water lake which Babur and his army passed through on their way to India. It's a popular tourist attraction now but when I walked those same paths he walked and visited the holy shrines where he made prayers before continuing to embark on his mission with his loyal army, I felt totally mesmerized...I know it sounds weird. It's really cool to explore history, especially when it hits so close to home.

Sophisty, your response only proves what he said regarding the Pakistani glorification of the Mughal retards and underplaying the Pashtuns rule over India.

The Pashtuns were ruling India 100 years before Babar was even born. You honestly have never heard of the Lodhi dynasty of Delhi?

Have you also never heard of Sher Shah S?r? the Pashtun ruler of Bihar who defeated the Mughals so severely in the 16th century CE that Humayun had to run away to Iran and take refuge with the Safavids? The pathetic loser even converted to Shi`ism just to kiss butt.

Sher Shah's rule over Northern India was short, but his contributions outweigh and outlast what the Mughals did in 500 years. He introduced India's first and only stable currency, the Rupee. He built the Grand Trunk Road along the Ghilzai traderoute (from Afghanistan to Bengal). He built the first major highway system in India's history and some of them are still in use to this day. In spite of being a Muslim ruler he is admired by the Indian Hindu population because he contributed so much to India's social, economic and civil infrastructure. Compare this to the antipathy they feel for the Mughals.

The Mughals brought NOTHING but corruption, dishonor, nepotism and a watering down of Islam (or should I say a "liquoring" down of Islam). They loved to sleep with Hindu women but did nothing to improve the condition of the minorities in their kingdoms. Their apathy, which later turned to cruelty, CREATED the Sikh movement. What started out as a political move for Punjabi independence turned into a RELIGION because the Mughals botched the situation so bad.

Bear in mind the Mughals were a bunch of wild Turks from the steppes who had barely converted to Islam and knew absolutely nothing of the religion. It took them hundreds of years before someone like Aurangzeb was born who knew anything at all about Islam. By that time though, they had screwed up the situation in India so bad he inherited a fledgling "empire". These people were mostly only nominally Muslim and as soon as they got the chance they abandoned Islam. Humayun converted back and forth between Sunni and Shi`ah every time he got his butt kicked and had to run away to one or the other. Akbar created an entirely new religion so that he could marry Hindu women without any censure. He called it the "Dini Il?h?". Islam was mere opportunity for these people. Other than that it was a joke to them.

The Pashtuns are a people who converted to Islam at the hands of the Companions of the Prophet (sallall?h? `alayh? wa sallam). When the Companions had besieged Kabul for months they couldn't win. They thought the conquest was lost until the Afghans themselves accepted Islam of their own accord ("Afghan" means "Pashtun". The two words are synonyms).

I don't blame you for not knowing these facts. These are facts that I had the privelege of studying and learning in Western "k?fir" society growing up in an English speaking family of mixed ethnic background with no affiliation towards any particular national identity. Had I grown up in Pakistan, or in a typical "Pakistani" family, I'd probably know much less than you on the topic.

was-sal?m

Haweye2004: I don't think the issue is whether the Pukhtun ruled India (I don't believe they did). I think what's being questioned is whether the Mughlas brought good values and made solid contributions to India.

Aragorn, i agree with u 100%. also, i don't know if u grew up in pak or not but i did and i don't recall ever reading in the history books in skool that pakhtuns ruled India for centuries before Mughals. and i think that is a crying shame. correct me if im wrong.
later.

To play devil's advocate for a sec Aragorn, the Mughals did bring culture to India in the form of architecture, language, conduct, etc. despite their often-drunk rulers.

The Mughals were the WORST thing to happen for Muslims of the subcontinent. Had it not been All?h's will that these drunken bastards defeat the Afghans, everything from Sri Lanka to Peshawar would have been Muslim.

The tail kicking that the Pashtun Sher Shah Suri of Bihar gave them is at least one piece of Mughal history that makes me smile.