"Fitnatic".... lol... that's hilarious.

Z0obs THANK YOU! Now THAT was an extremely valuable contribution.

I aware of the potential hepatotoxicity of CEE and, thus, am taking Milk Thistle and haven't noticed any problems. I'm getting tremendous gains.

One problem I do notice is quite a bit of bloat. Any tips on reducing this bloat, which may be due to either the Creatine or the Arginine (God forbid!), would be most welcome!

Anyways, thanks.

Thanks for the update--sure, would love to train next time I'm down. I usually have to settle for a "maintenance" workout when in Houston --full of high rep burnout sets and calisthenics:)!

And If I recall how fitnatic that gym is, you better lower your gaze (but tilt your head back)!!!!!!!!

Ray, Lifetime fitness is AWESOME. There's the one in Sugar Land that you saw and there's a few others like in Cinco Ranch.

I'm working out at the 24hr Fitnah on Dairy Ashford and Westheimer these days. Good ole Hayes road isn't as good as it used to be and the equipment is falling apart. I still go there sometimes when I have to go after hours since they are the only true 24 hour joint.

Dude, if you're ever in town and wouldn't mind me tagging along as a partner gimme a call ;) You can get my # from your bro. Take care man, was-sal?m

Dude, this is the second time you've said that completely irrelevant B.S. in a thread. Just like I asked you last time...I'm asking you again...what is the point you are trying to make and how does it relate in ANY WAY to what we are talking about? How are you supposed to "regulate supplements" as you "need them" if you don't know the science behind it? Sounds like you're am HMB user.

So far this has been a discussion between myself and Ray. We are both well known in our communities and our stats are well known. Anyone who knows us would tell you that advising us to "go to the gym" is just plain retarded.

If you have something to add regarding the topic please do, but if you don't, then don't thread crap.

Yup, supplementting beta-alanine raises carnosine levels in muscle tissue. I partially sponsored a study on it with Dr. Mark Tallon and it was presented at this past FASEB conference. I can send details if you want--good stuff. The best dose is 1.6 grams twice daily--take one dose before training and one right after. I would not recommend spot injecting carnosine for many reasons including purity of carnosine available for injection, unable to guarantee it will reach target muscle and buffer H+, etc..I'll ask poliquin what he was thinking next time I see him..

P.S. What gym are u training at in H-town? I passed by this Lifetime or lifestyle fitness place in sugarland which was huge. But I prefer the dungeon gyms myself--u know the ones with chalk everywhere, guys screaming, crying, and bent bars!

Ray, are you supplementing Beta-Alanine with Histidine to raise Carnosine levels? If so, do you mind sharing your opinion on the pros and cons of the various methods out there? Why not spot inject L-Carnosine like Paloquin claims he does for his athletes?

Actually here is a better link to the full milk thistle/PC liver study:
www.thorne.com

The liver effect of ethyl esters (especially peptide or amino acid EE) is pretty well documented. Yes, ALA can certainly help and I like that compound anyways for insulin regulation, antioxidant, etc..But never seen anything on ALCAR and liver protection. One of the best combos as I mentioned is Milk Thistle and Phosphatidylcholine: see this reference:
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov db=pubmed& dopt=Abstract& list_uids=16164374& query_hl=5& itool=pubmed_docsum

Let me know how you do on the CEE over a months time or so..Actually, one of my favorite ingredients these days is Beta-Alanine (4 g/day)--that stuff works and there is good research behind it...

Ray, I did hear anecdotally about its toxicity, but couldn't get my hands on anything solid giving more details other than a passing reference. However, I'll definitely take your word for it and supplement with some Milk Thistle. I heard that Milk Thistle taken along with ALA and ALCAR is a good combo for protecting the liver, especially from methylated compounds. Have you heard anything about this?

Thanks for the heads up and I'll be anxiously looking out for your article(s) on the subject!

I've heard users report some good results with CEE but the problem is that it's taxing on the liver due to its chemical structure. So make sure to take milk thistle or phosphatidylcholine with it --Liver-X by MRM is a good product. Basically, CEE is the membrane permeable form of creatine that may enter the muscle cells without using the "typical" creatine transporter molecules. So you may be able to load it faster--hence the results in a short amount of time, but theres no human data that can support or dispute the claim that its better than regular creatine in the long run. So its best to try it out for yourself. I have an article coming up in some of the muscle mags (Maximum Fitness, M& F, etc) about this and other forms of creatine--so check it out in the March/April pubs!

Umair, its actually one of the cheaper products out there. Its cheaper than both BSN NO-Xplode and Labrada Supercharge.

As far as NO goes, it does have its benefits but the products containing these L-Arginine based compounds are outrageously priced. It makes a cheap alternative to Viagra (even for recreational purposes as opposed to necessity), but for bodybuilding purposes which require regular consumption its simply cost prohibitive.

As far as Xpand goes, I've tried it and it has left me so pumped that I'm actually sore and achey. Supercharge or NO-Xplode never did that for me so I'm assuming its the different ingredient, CEE (Creatine Ethyl Ester) that's doing it. I also put on about 5 lbs in a week and a half, but that's common with Creatine related products. Its probably mostly intramuscular water, but that's not a bad thing at all. It does increase strength even if its limited to the period you are supplementing with Creatine.

I chose Xpand because it doesn't have the caffeine of NO-Xplode and Supercharge. That way I can control my caffeine intake and also throw in Ephedrine with caution which gives me tremendous results. They do have a caffeinated version called "Energized Xpand", but after having used them I would strongly recommend against using these caffeine overloaded products. Take the caffeine but seperately. That way you have more control over your caffeine intake.

After I finish this tub I am going to buy pure CEE and give it a shot. Then I'll make a final decision. If I don't get the same results I'm sticking with Xpand. Its a solid product.