how do you reconcile this with the Quran very strongly arguing for the strengthening of kinship? how do we balance the two... don't you think strong kinship helps in strengthening moral bonds..

Kinship certainly provides a way in which unity can be achieved and cultural precepts developed. Kinship however is globally divisive and leads to such thing as nationalism, which we know to be very intolerant and definately a clear idea that islam attempted obliterated. In my opinion any divisive force is a form of oppression on the masses. The only allotted divisiveness is between good and evil all else divisions are clear against the spirit of humanity.

what about the roots of kinship?

Yes Lubnah ,however we may have taken this forum to discussing the validity of the author of the above (iqbal) as opposed to topics being discussed. To get things back full circle. Humble_Soul I dont really think anyone stated that we are better off today or perhaps i missed the point completely. The discussion was a generalized one on the state of the Islamic Culture. I say that with caution since many have already stated that nothing of sort exists nor should it. I take the middle ground on this matter and agree with Iqbal in the sense that an Islamic Cultural Experience is tied to its underlying spiritual roots. Spiritual roots in this sense are driven by the acceptance of unitary nature of Allah and belief in core moral principles that islam addresses. This is only a basis for this not the end all. We must first agree that culture by nature is an amorphous entity but the basis of culture stays the same throughout all times and peoples. Take for examples the care for the young. It could be agreed that moral societies will always care for their young. I would also agree that there are exceptions to this rule and examples thereof. However, we would ever or anyone else would call the killing of a human child a moral upright attribute. So when spirituality and a base moral code combine a sense of unity can be reached. The base moral code is a very absolute code that would be acceptable to all. Islamic Culture hence is the combination of the two precepts described. That is key to islamic civilization that as it reached different cultires it did not eliminate those culture brought and control them under the two folds of unity. In arabia it stopped the murder female infants but at the same time respected the tribal nature of society as long as it did not interfere or conflict with man's relationship with God as prescribed by islam.

wow..I didnt visit the village for a few days and missed out on so much activity :) khiladi...thanks for the input... shabbir...your post has been quite thought-provoking :)

Ssahmed.. my response was actually directed at at Rozaiba.. not the questions you raised

K and R. Dudes, dont go crazy over the semantics. Think big picture. If we are to be global movers and shakers than this religion MUST become the global culture.

but I'd agree with him, that Muslims are way behind in today's age... it was confirmed by my recent visit to Pakistan... but I'm not one to blame that on Islam... a proper reading of history teaches us many things about the rise and fall of nations... and further, the idea that simply because we are Muslims and that the world falls at our feets is totally contradictory to the Qurean.. in fact, the Muslims have adopted the same error so VEHEMENTLY criticized in the Quran regarding the Bani Israel.. "we are the chosen people of God..." and because of this, God's bounty comes without sacrifice..

Rozaiba seems to have an inferiority complex, and he's trying to dispel it by rejecting his own traditions... its an ironic thing... that's why he wears a bandana on his head, while living in Pakistan, like its in style in the States.. it clearly reflects the state of confusion he's in... I'd wonder when he refers to knowledge what's knowledge he's talking about

as a side note, the statements regarding bounty and booty was nothing new even during the time of the revelation... the Quran clearly remarks on certan people who began entering the Muslim fold because of the grounds it was making in the Arabian peninsula, i.e. their conversion was motivated by selfish interests... also, according to the Quran, the booty that is collected is divided by the State, and a portion of it is given to the soldiers, and the rest for the establishment of social justice.. also, the Quran draws attention to certan people tryng to quell the Muslim expansionism by propagating that these people were waging war and taking booty... besides such propaganda being obviously absurd considering th ehistory of the Muslim movement, and the sacrifices of the early followers, the Quran tells the Muslims to have no hesitaton in taking the booty... this is why we find such statements against monkery and monasticism made in the context of jihad... passivism and the acceptance of an unjust social order is not accepted as righteuous in Islam... I think with Islam, men are by far better off..

it is the 'revisionsts' of history that try and reduce such a monumental events in world history merely to the basis of 'economic' factors...

further, no one is idolizing the anybody... there was a clearly inspiration beyond booty and bounty that motivated a culture that had no interest in extending its borders beyond their tribal regions... we very well know that there was no desire for bounty and booty from the earlier followers of Islam, especially considering many of the leading propagatorsa of the religion included wealthy people, from Abu Bakr to Uthman, and ohter tribal leaders who had plenty of respect and power such as Saad ibn Muadh and Saad ibn Ubaadah, the Aws and Khazraj chiefs

further, jahiliya was not conflicts of ignorance, but conflicts of passion... jahilliya in its primary meaning refers to actions that are emotional and without proper reason... humans suffer from this just as much as in the past.. it is practiced today where technical knowledge has surpassed even the greatest frontiers

and one needs to keep a distinction between Iqbal's poetic optimism and his views on history... Iqbal has clearly described the fall of Muslim glory and its lack of unity from many different factors, among them the IMPERIALISTIC trend among the early Arab rulers after the rightly-guided khaleephas

also, the Quran says quite explicitly that "we created life and death to see whom amongst you is best in deeds"... to argue that utopia exists in this world is antithesis to the Quran and the idea of free-will...

further, to argue on that the original founders were desert dwellers as a proof to the backwardness of a culture is pretty stupid, considering this is how all civilizations originate... Europe was a primarily agrarian civilization, with their people living in 'freakin' farm outposts...

actually, the original believers in Islam, as Fazlur Rahman points out, were the city-dwellers, those involved in trade from the regions of Syria to Yemen... the beduoins were those whom the Quran clearly pointed out, often pursued Islam for their own selfish ends...

Do tell me how we were better off in the past than today? I don't think it's realistic to idolize the inspirations of desert bedouins. Bounty and booty were their inspirations along with the Islamic zeal. And no one can say in which order. No one needs to. But we are better off today because they lived in freakin desert outposts. We live in great urban centers. Their conflicts were with ignorance, ours are with knowledge. We are far better off.

Lubna: actually i was hoping the nick name for the name 'Iqbal' would catch on and everyone would start using it...but since that's really not been the case yet, I will continue to stress it...as for Bala's emphasis on Islam...sure, emphasis is great, but it's usually evoked through a delusional revisions of history...a history where Muslims, like any people, never really wanted unity based on religion...where other mattters seemed far more important that promotion of religions...so it sounds rather odd to hear the consistent laments of Bala of days gone by when really, Muslims were as united as they are today...where Islam was as much a unifying factor as it is today...it sounds like we must all pity ourselves for what we are today...whereas, in reality, we are far better off today, then we've ever been...even if we don't have that 'islamic unity' of whatever form within us...

Ditto Lubnah....