as salaamu alaikum wr wb...i think i agree with momokam on most of his points...i can think of situations where ppl barely got to know each other and r very happily married...alhamdulillah, one of my best friends met a guy through her family, within 3 days they were engaged and then in another 2 weeks she got her nikkah done, but i know that might be an extreme example...i don't think that amount of time u spend with the person tells u much about the person, but it's rather how u get to know them...and u don't even have to be with the person necessarily to get to know them...there r many things u can do to get to know the "potential": (1)ask in the community about what kinda person he is, ask his friends what he's like and how he is in stressful situations...remind the friend u r asking of the hadith that says whatever they say about the person whether it's good or bad will not be considered back-biting since it's for marriage (3)in ur getting to know process, ask meaningful questions that will help u in deciding if u want to be with this person long term...their favorite color, food and hobbies will not help u out much on the day of judgement...it might be wise to ask questions like how the person envisions the future, what they value in life the most, ask about their weaknesses & strengths, etc...try to make him angry and see how he handles the situation (4)pray istikhaara and ask Allah(SWT) for advice...Allah(SWT) is All-Knowing & the best of planners...
alhamdulillah it'll be 9 months almost since i've been married and i'm not at all disappointed...i don't think there were any surprises that came up for me after marriage even though my getting to know process was about a month to two months...after a month, i knew that he was the one i wanted to marry...i felt like i really knew him cuz of the discussions we had...n e wayz, in the end, it comes down to making du'a and praying that insha'Allah this person brings out the best in u & makes u closer to Allah(SWT)...u could be married to the nicest person, but if they rn't helping u in ur deen then is it really worth it? sometimes we'll have obstacles/tests in our life that really bring out the most difficult times, but in the end we might end up really close to Allah(SWT)! smile cuz it's sunnah :) fi'aman Allah...ur sista in Islam

I am sorry, I have been away so couldn't participate in the discussion. Great points have been brought forward, I didn't think about some of the points. Thanks for all the learning

I vill be back in vun veek inshallah to raise some mo' ruckus. But you're right tho ... "lookin" is no easy thing. Some quick points here. First off, I think it depends a lot on whether one has time, cuz pressure is bad for any decision-making, and can cause misjudgment. One's gotta be willing to let it go with a person to be able to see deeper than the "front." And, in my personal opinion because of how I see things generally, it's difficult when one is actively "looking" (and this is where time comes into play again), cuz some pressure always comes in, cuz another person puts on more of a front than if they didn't think you were looking. I also see a lot of value to getting more sets of *reliable* eyes than one's own (and this is where it's sooo important to have parents, siblings, cousins, friends etc keep an eye on the situation). In the end, it's not about "getting to know" the person's ins and outs; it's about increasing levels of compatibility in the *real* things, and minimizing risks of failure. It's about ***predictability***, which comes not from knowing the details, but from knowing the essence, the core, of a person. The details always change. The core almost never does. AND, the families should always get involved because their presence creates a new level of accountability and new relationships that both people get molded by. You increase predictability with that. Much more to this, but busybusybusy.

Momokam, elaborate please

I agree with mamad, momokam and stajani.. stajani, I saw my ex for months in a family situation and outside, and he was putting on a different face throughout.. this lasted 9+ months - the time we knew his family that is.. momokam, the method you describe, the social one is also flawed, as ppl can lie in front of their friends and family (or worse get them to cover for them).. also some of my friends would be a liability to me in such a situation (I would need to find new friends first) as some of them can't stand the idea of me finding a decent guy..before they do...

STAJANI, here's the problem with mere examples: counterexamples. I think every single one of us has known several people who "really tried to get to know each other" before marriage yet are now deeevorced. AND, most of us here would agree that the frequency of such divorces is FAR greater than of the kind of example you offer. All the luck to you in "investing good amount of time" getting to know people one-on-one. But I would recommend against saying that surprises are "in your naseeb," as you say. Most people get surprised because they don't know HOW to look and create relationships. Lemme just say that it's entirely naive for anyone to think that "getting to know a person one-on-one" is a good way at getting into and maintaining a healthy marriage. MAMAD, you're right. I'm not trying to say that there shouldn't be a "getting to know" period. In fact, I think there should be a good amount of getting to know, cuz the other person will be a huge part of your life. I'm just saying that there are ways of getting to know that are better than "dating." I have my own understanding of this, but it's too detailed for here and nobody wanna hear anyway lol.

Jas: You are in West Lafayette, Indiana? WOW...I went to Purdue..my gosh, my college town :) So how do you like it out there?? This is great :)

I had this friend in college, who was a hijabi. Really nice, sweet, religious etc...Anyways, she was totally against dating and would always tell me how I should never be alone with a guy and always have older people around us. And I told her you can never know a person like that. You have to be alone with them and spend time with them to figure out what they are all about. So one day, she tells me that she found a perfect guy (religious, educated, good family yada yada yada), And that they met a few times with family being there and got engaged and now they are getting married. I told her, hey dont you want to spend more time with this guy and she said its against Islam blah blah...and I said to her, are you sure about this? She said yeah he is great and perfect...Anyways, so they get married and 6 months later she realizes that this guy lied to her. He drinks, goes clubbing and actually likes someone else and the reason why he married her, so his parents would back off. And they ended up in a divorce. Actually I never talked to her after her divorce, I had already left college...The point to this story is that you cant blindly marry someone. You really have to invest good amount of time knowing this person before you even marry them. Even then at times people can surprise you after marriage....so I guess its in your naseeb. But one shouldnt be Naive about such things either....

Momakam..i can see where you're coming from...but i believe even if it is in a group interaction...if parents or uncles and aunts are there people still have a "front"...like wearing hejab, or not smoking and drinking....i feel you only get to know a person through sitting down and having an honest discussion face to face...that's why i feel even with arranged marriages there has to be an engagement period...I would say of atleast 6 months...then you can see each other be it on your own or with friends...but if you get married 2 weeks after getting engaged, you'll just see each other at family events...and honestly won't learn much about the person you're marrying

Salaam errrbody. LABS, I understand what you're saying, about the pressures. I just feel that the best way to get to know about a person is through group interaction. Most of what we can know about another person is through how s/he acts with others and reacts to weird situations others bring up. In one-on-one interaction, one only has exposure to how s/he acts with you ... and that's gonna be full "front" (unintentional front, cuz s/he wants to impress you). And, in one-on-one situations, there's gonna be attachment. In my opinion, decisions as large as marriage shouldn't be about attachments, but rather be well-reasoned--and attachments should come afterwards. To decrease the attachments, it's always good to involve others, who can look out for your best interest and who will keep a "check" on both people. Another thing to decrease attachments: I think it's good for *both* sides not to "commit" until after a decision is made. I'm writing this really quickly, and don't know if it's coming across clearly at all. I'll check back in a few days to make sure.

Well.. it will only work if there are enough women putting their foot down (not really practical in the current generation!) Also parents come out with this fantastic stereotype..as you mention.. eg., in my case, pre marriage, age 22, I wasn't supposed to go out or talk to guys.. now, post divorce, I am not interested in an arranged marriage scenario this time round, so my parents expect me to go out and do something ie. about settling down.. as if I'm supposed to start actively chatting/ meeting guys overnight..after being discouraged from that very behaviour for years?!

Yeah I wish it could become the norm, the prob is that most of our society sees nothing wrong with regular dating, I have even heard parents who say that "how else will they find anyone?" It also seems hard to prevent people from flirting. There needs to be a lot of initiative and commitment to make it work.

Zuminelli, I agree, halal dating can be tricky, but it's something that has to become a norm rather than something you want .. that the other party disagrees with because they'd rather date freely; and the ban on group interactions is definitely killing any potential to meet in the community

I remember this story of a sahabi who used to like this girl and he used to watch her from behind a tree..and then later he would spend time with her and her family and this allowed them to get to know one another. Even the prophet (saw) knew his wife Khadija before they were married. I don't think you need to to be alone with the person to get to know them. There are many other ways. You can actually tell a lot about a person by their interaction with others. The problem with our society is that it does not facilitate group interactions. Dating has resulted from complete segregation....... Labs: Halal dating is a good concept in theory but I don't see it working, b/c you need commitment from both sides, which is going to be hard.

Momokam, there are those of us who are not into dating, but married someone who was.. and someone who was therefore able to take the 'easy ' option out.. or we are faced with men (in the UK) who tell us 'you can't have grown up in this country.. what kind of person doesn't want to date!'....I don't believe you can date for a long period of time and know anything (much) about the person, other then what they want you to know....... also, the appearance one gives you in a group setting can be equally misleading.. .. arranged marriage / ie. not getting to know the person face to face can have equally dire consequences.. I think the ideal is somewhere in the middle... and I think halal dating exists, or 'courtship' as christians call it, where you see the person, talk about marriage rather than flirt, have a time limit in mind, rather than stringing people along, and keep it chaste.

MOMO bro, you have hit the nail on the head. Mamad i also agree with you a little bit on the judgement call. I think that no only just the dad, but both the parents are the better judge of a person, as its their kid, who grew up before their own eyes. What his/her instincts are, what are the major turn ons and offs are all know to the parents, they therefore would be a better filter to pass a person through, instead of "I know me better" or "'cause i said so" excuse. Individual dating takes the fun out of a relationship (even if you go ahead and marry the person). Love is a feeling, a liking, a habbit and nothing more. If you start dating and start spending time togather with a single person day after day, you get used to it, and that begets a relationship, and further grows into Love; but during all that dating period you have explored the other person inside out, what he likes, dislike, favorite color, smell, movie, yada yada yada... so there is little left to learn, thus dullness awaits after marriage and the term "marriage life sucks" is achieved. But at the same time if you dont know the person and get married (provided both parties agree to get married) the initial time of marriage is quite dull, as you dont know you spouse, then slowly and gradually you get to know the person you married, and then you get used to that person being around you all the time, and then you grow love for that person. "Falling in Love with your spouse" now thats real love story. and a recipie for stronger longer marriage.

as salaamu alaikum wr wb my dear brothas & sistas in islam...
(1)I think most ppl nowadays don?t get married cuz they have this "ideal husband/wife" in mind who they think will make them the happiest person on the face of this earth...the truth is that Allah(SWT) knows BEST and He alone is the best of planners? from my personal experience, I can only say that I?m much happier today cuz I trusted in Allah(SWT) and what He had planned for me cuz if I were able to live out what I thought would make me the happiest without du?a, I wouldn?t have been this happy today?sometimes a decent person is brought up to one?s attention, but he/she isn?t even given a chance cuz supposedly they rn?t good looking enuf or one can?t imagine being married to that person...well, how will u ever know if u don?t give it a chance? I say this to u cuz I wouldn?t have been happily married to my hubby today if I hadn?t gotten over those thoughts...Alhamdulillah today I luv my hubby dearly and I can?t imagine myself with n e one else?my sincere advice to all those that r looking would be to not lose faith that u will be happily married soon insha?Allah, make sincere du?a, pray istikhaara when someone comes along ur way even if it?s not ur "ideal" and then based on that make a decision...
***mamad: I had an arranged marriage to a certain degree?it?s pretty simple...u ask them what u have to in order to make ur decision and if ur decision is a "yes" then u precede to an engagement or in my case, I didn?t want a long engagement so about 5 months later, I got married...in the engagement period, I would hope that insha?Allah u?d still ask bout their well being or talk to one another if u see each other at gatherings, but I wouldn?t recommend going out alone with the person cuz engagements do break off and mean nothing more than the fact that u?ve given ur word to the family?the way u talk to one another should still have some formality cuz it makes one appreciate marriage even more?just like an ayah in the Qur?an says "with patience comes great reward."

(2) divorce has definitely increased and become more acceptable in the last decade, but it should remain as our last resort. One should look into divorce if it is harmful to their well being or deen, but we shouldn?t forget that MARRIAGE IF HALF OF OUR DEEN?no one said it was going to be an easy half...we have to work at it and just like our Iman goes up & down in our life, so will our marriage at times...the key for any believer is to pass the tests that r thrown at u?not break down and give up in life!

Well said MOMOKAM, how it?s possible that one go out with someone with the intentions of dating/knowing/exploring and not to be involve emotionally? Second, once a person become used too of walking out from those dating relationships, it?s much easier for him to walkout from a fragile marriage.

Betsy: I have to agree with you on that one. I believe its good to meet people and hangout with them a few times so you can get to know them better. Dating doesn't mean you have to sleep with the person, instead you can hangout with them, go places, talk and see if you are compatible. Meeting more people doesnt get you confused, better yet it helps you figure out what kind of person you want to be with. If we only met 2 people and had to decide, even if they are so-so then you are settling. I dont believe that you should settle for the sake of being with someone, you should be with someone because you want to be with them. Now getting your emotions involved each time you meet someone new, then dating is not for you. You control your emotions, your feelings and your thoughts!! You can get to know them in a friendship level by hanging out with them and figure out a few things about them to see if they are compatible with you...thats my 2 cent on that ;)

In my opinion....you don't really know a person until you live with them...anyone who's ever shared a flat will know this....................dating will tell u a little bit about them...but everyone has a front...and its very hard to get to know the real person................and also men are much better at judging other men than women are...hence i think why the woman needs the permission of her parents before she marries...her dad will be able to tell in 5 minutes what kind of a guy his daughter's going to marry.