Then we are, and always have been, in complete agreement, Rosewater! Thank you for your clarifications!

Asalaam U Alaikum


Shamsideen. You're comments are wise MashAllah but I'm not sure what you mean by you agreeing with me that homosexuality is not natural. I don't recall stating that at all. And the reason why I highlight this point is because even I don't quite understand what 'natural' is. That's why I would not have said anything along those lines. All I know is that if someone's doing something out of a 'base' desire, then to me it would seem a 'natural' instinct -a non-coaxed, desire that a person feels the need to fulfill. Just because it's haram doesn't make it unatural... does it? It just means that if one is feeling these 'haram'/ prohibitted desires then it's up to that person to rid themselves as best they can of those thoughts and desires and for even more support, seek Allah for Guidance, stregnth and sustenance away from that which is inherantly haram. Unatural and Natural is, I think a debate in it's own right! :0)

I just want to make something very clear. In both of the comments I made. I did not in anyway state (or personally think) that it was our duty to antaganise / punish gays in anyway what so ever. I merely gave my own view on what I knew the Quran to have taught me.

I dont believe that we are here to make such hefty judgement on ANYONE, as to abuse them or worse still, 'kill them! As much as Allah may want us to treat everyone as you would want them to treat you, He doesn't in any way condone that we 'hate' one another and treat each other with blind animosity and fired up loathing. Afterall, Allah has made us ALL. How can we loathe any of His creation? I stick to my fundamental point of the fact that we, as Muslims know what the Truth is and what Allah has warned us of. After that, it is our choice to act a certain way in accordance to what we know.

Now, I too know a gay couple. As a matter of fact I went to college with one of them and he happens to be Muslim also. I am not going to say he is 'not' Muslim (I am no one to judge anyone, especially in that regard and none of us have the right to say that a person is not Muslim just because of certain practices they may incorporate in their lives). Allah knows best. And we must leave final judgement with Him. My point is (and nowhere have I deviated from my earlier statements, just because I happen to know a gay man) that even though I know him (a group of us have known eachother since we were 16 and have grown up remaining intouch), it doesn't mean I condone the 'intimate' actions he chooses to adopt as part of his lifestyle.

I would never treat him or any other person with intollerance. I personally know what the Truth is regarding the topic we have been discussing. And all I can do, as a 'friend', is pray for him. My opinion is that anyone can meet up with, go out with their gay friends and offer them 'support' in what I like to call the more 'superficial' departments in our lives. However, in my opinion again, it takes a genuine friend and servant to Allah to actually PRAY for that person to be rightly guided. To want the best for your friends goes beyond 'supporting' them in the lifestyle they have chosen. I personally feel that that isn't being an honest Muslim friend at all. By helping them in a gentle and supportive way to understand the Guidance that we have recieved, in the form of the Quran and Sunna cannot hinder a true friendship in anyway. On the plus side also, you are not only spreading the word of the Almighty in a peaceful way, but also showing your friend that you care that much more for them to want to 'help' them to help themselves.

Anyone who goes about taking bits and peices out of the Quran (and many a time out or context) in order to ultimately stimulate hatred, is a person I personally would not like to be associated with. Furthermore, a person who knows the Truth but continues to deny it to them selves AND their friends is not, in my eyes, much of a support system to that person, as he / she can't in all honesty care THAT much for that 'friend' if they can't see beyond this life (and the temptations it throws up at us all) and not want the best for their 'friend's' future (as well as their own - in this life and the Hereafter).

Finally, directed to Sahadat. I didn't "assign human emotion" to Allah. I think we all know that Allah is beyond any type of human characteristic of any and every kind and we could never conceptualise his entirety or Greatness (Allah Hu Akbar). The word 'despised' was used in my last comment to further
and intensify (if you like) the meaning of 'Haram' and 'Prohibited'.

Also, nowhere in any of my comments have I stated that "Allah dispises homosexuals". Now, that's something you've made up my friend. It's the 'act' which is dispised (as it is haram)... NOT the inherant person.

I think I've pretty much said what I wanted to regarding this topic, so excuse me if I don't comment further in the future.

Salaam to you all.

salam aleikum shamsideen! (H)

Shamsideen, that was a gloriously wise and even-handed posting. Salaams and respect to you!

Salaam MissLondon, and thanks for typing in small letters, quite easily readable. Thank you very much.

MissLondon & Rosewater: On this subject, I have read all the comments written so far. I am with you on not accepting that homosexuality is natural. In fact, even if there are evidences that animals practice it, it is not the same law that is applicable to animals which is applicable to humans.

I am also with you in respect of the future and the fear of how this cancer is spreading. I have children and very close my family, and I will hate that a day will come and someone close to me (family and relatives) would declare his or her sodomy! (Fa ?audhubillah).

However, I want us to be very clear in respect of our roles and responsibilities.

Homosexuality is a sin and it is haram, no iota of doubt. But how does it take one out of Islam? Such that Pakistaniprince & Nussie have concluded that you cannot be gay and Muslim? If you hold that because Allah destroyed the people of Lut because of homosexuality, what about the other people who Allah destroyed because of Trade Fraud? Does it mean that all business people are out of Islam?

Didn?t Allah warn that those who devour interest (riba, usury) are at war with him, how many of them are we fighting, refusing to talk to or accommodate in our houses? This double standard is dangerous.

Homosexuality is a sin, but adultery is equally sinful. Punishment for both in Shari?ah is death. Are we equality antagonistic to adulterer friends and colleagues?

And by the way, I see nothing wrong with Shahadat's statement "So I will take care of my gay friends and support them when they're hrartbroken and be as good a freind as I can because I can feel the little bit of Allah that resides in my heart respond with approval when I love others." (As long as LOVE here means CARE FOR, and OTHERS mean their PERSONS and not their actions.)

We shouldn't forget that Allah has sent us as He sent the Prophets only as WARNERS not as ENFORCER. Prophet Ibrahim (Peace Be Upon Him) we know him to be a very charitable prophet, no traveller passes thru his town but he will feed and entertain them. He provided meal for a particular traveller who supplicated to his Sun god before eating. Ibrahim chided him of his ingratitude to Allah and took the food away from him. The traveller continued his journey without being fed. Allah cautioned Ibrahim for this act. Allah feeds and sustains His creation despite their hatred/dismissal and abandonment of Him and the persecution of His worshippers. We are His vicegerent on earth and our responsibility is to guide and support Allah?s Creations (humanity, animals, the environment etc) whatever their religious or moral choice. We should not fall folly of playing God. Allah knows best who truly worship Him. This argument can also be used to convince gay to abandon their perverted path.

My point is: we cannot have a blanket hatred for all homosexuals. We must seek to engage them to change them. Some of them might earn our anger and disassociation, it is not because they are gay, but because they justify and seek to twist the Qur'an to suit their claims. So no general hatred, please. Most of the time those things we violently opposed usually come to gain ground, but those things which we seek to engage, naturally die down. Islam spread faster at time of peace than at time of war. Proof is in how it spread to most part of the world ?trade and social interaction.

Peace, sisters and brothers.

Solid thinking, Rosewater, but flawed conclusion. I was being flippant with the 'Allah made me do it' statement (intended as a humorous take on 'the devil made me do it' excuse - obviously the pun fell flat!) - Allah, of course, doesn't make you do anything! That would undermine his gift of free will. Well pointed out but you grasp hold of it too dearly. That contradiction doesn't undermine my main point, the plank of my post which is: "So I will take care of my gay friends and support them when they're hrartbroken and be as good a freind as I can because I can feel the little bit of Allah that resides in my heart respond with approval when I love others."

Allah may despise the act (although assinging human emotions like disgust to Allah is inherently flawed) but it doesn't necessarily follow that Allah despises homosexuals. So I would take issue with your statement, "Tell me, how would you continue to love that which Allah does not love?" Allah never witholds love. Or you may believe he does. Which is fine. That's your idea of Allah. Not mine. But don't worry, Allah will answer everything on the day of audience!

Sahadat wrote

"I will question everything because I believe that Allah wishes me to to. And I look forward to my audience with the Almighty after doing so. So I will take care of my gay friends and support them when they're hrartbroken and be as good a freind as I can because I can feel the little bit of Allah that resides in my heart respond with approval when I love others. Why will I continue to love and support my gay friends? Allah made me do it! What else can I say?"

Sahadat. In response to your above statements. Well to be perfectly honest, I wouldn't know where to start. There are so many contradictions in what you have said that disecting it sentence by sentence would be pointless. No disrespect... I'm just stating my opinion.

You state that Allah 'made' you support your gay friends. At the same time you also write that you 'question everything, because Allah wishes you to'. So, if you're apparently "questioning everything", that would suggest that you are infact using some part of your intellect. Am I right? If that is the case, then it would be argued that you are, in order to make a concise conclusion regarding the afor 'questioning', using a natural and God given freedom to insight 'choice', which ultimately guides you to your decision. Am I right? If this is all agreed then can you tell me what on earth you're talking about? Your statement basically says - if read literally, that you question everything first and then choose FOR YOURSELF what to think and what not to, but are 'forced' by Allah to basically (regarding the above discussion) "support your gay friends". So, in a nutshell you have told us that infact you dont have freewill to choose and 'question' at all. You are 'lead', and infact have no choice in the matter at all!!

I don't have to repeat what our Holy book offers us as guidance regarding homosexuality. It's incredibly clear. Completely black and white. Now, what you said about 'loving others' is all relative and certainly something that we, as Believers should be incorporating in our lives anyway - towards all of humanity. However, it seems to me that you are confused with the 'love' that Allah has prescribed, to mean 'acceptance' of everything including that which is HARAM. 'Haram' means 'unlawful' and forbidden and DESPISED by Allah. Tell me, how would you continue to love that which Allah does not love?

Now, do you still look forward to 'your audience with the Almighty'?

I think we need to present ourselves slightly less presumptiously and not assume that for our biased and misled efforts that we will be congratulated in the after life.

May Allah forgive us, Guide us and instill in us Knowledge, Acceptance of the Truth, and establish our feet firmly as MUSLIMS (Ameen).

I NEVER SAID TO KILL ANYONE!!I said it should be discouraged,,,,

WHY DOES THE MEDIA NOT EVER ADVERTISE JEWS GAYS????


Umer, some sick people are already having sex with animals, horse, dogs, cats, cows etc etc,,,,, and i am sure that people are going to think thats acceptable too,,,, Then sooner then later, people will have sex with they daughters, sons, mothers, fathers and this also will be acceptable!!!
Why do we make a BIG Fuss on sex offenders and paedophiles when we will be thinking they activities are also acceptable!!!!

If this world was practising Islam and shariah was the law of the land, we would not been so exposed to this kind of filth or pollution!!

Ah, the mark of Umer. He doesn't say much nowadays but when he contributes, it's a doozy! That was a well-reasoned and sane response. It's a subtlety that most Muslims (actually, most poeple) seem not to possess: that you can accept something without agreeing with it. That you can hate what someone does and love them anyway. That disagreement does not mean judging someone else.

On your thinking, Umer, if the energy analogy works; then it is conceivable that overopulation could lead to more of these dams being closed in order to stop an overload? And what mechanism could one use to stop the flow? Perhaps an increase in homosexuality? Just a thought. Because since the genetic modifiers for a predilection for homosexuality are not man-made then... Well, who made the things that are not man-made?

Sex/procreation is one of the two powerful fundamental forces of humanity. It is the only round about answer to the other fundamental force in our existence: Death.

Now if we wanted to fcuk animals and our own genders and little holes in a tree, then that?s fine on an individual level ? as long as it?s consensual (although I fail to understand how a chicken could consent to something half its size ? one cluck for ?yes?, two clucks for ?no? I suppose).

But in order for societies and civilisations to exist, sex has been tapped and harnessed and channelled through the concept of marriages between males and females.

It?s much like a dam in the way of a river. The river water has an urge to flow but this time it flows in a controlled way through turbines which then generate electricity. On a micro level, it?s like the ATPase pumps in our cellular mitochondrial membranes which tap into the ?urge? of hydrogen ions to cross membranes. By doing so, they bring out many useful processes, one of them being the energy Dollar ? ATP.

If it wasn?t for the dams, we wouldn?t have electricity and our society would be technologically primitive. If it wasn?t for the ATPase pumps, it would be impossible for living things to go beyond the organisational level of bacteria.

And if it wasn?t for this institution of marriage between males and females we would be socially hindered. Over time humans have learned to organically label useful things as ?good? and wasteful activities as ?evil?.

I?m assuming that homosexuality is ?evil? because of this. It is because that at the higher level homosexuality is a wasteful activity which does not contribute to the productivity of a society. But then one can also apply this principle to pre-marital sex. And how many of us (ahem) engage in that, without recognising that our actions are subtly contributing to the erosion of a tried and tested institution?

One is considered evil and wicked whilst the other is fine with us. Why? What is the logic behind that? I don?t agree to homosexuality and I believe it should be discouraged for the above purposes but I couldn?t hate or pre-judge a homo even if my life depended on it.

We?re all human beings and as such composites. Seeing a person only through the prism of their sexuality is insulting. George Michael is a phenomenal artist, a generous kind human being, an intelligent hard working man and probably a great company. I couldn?t see him as a butt-mincing faggot if I tried. But at the same time, just because he is all of the above, that doesn?t make homosexuality (on a higher level) okay either.

There should be a compromise between the unit and the society. As long as society doesn?t interfere with a person?s personal choices and what he/she does at their home, the person should respect the infrastructure of society and not shove their beliefs down other people?s throat.

Live and let live.

Umer M.

Gays are killing themselves!!!

Gays? Kill 'em. Having sex before marriage? Kill' em. Using condoms? Kill'em. Member of another religion (ie, infidels)? Kill' em. Skirt above the knee (whore!)? Kill'em. Basically, you'd all be dead by now. It's this kind of hateful medieval thinking that's perverting Islam in the modern age. Luckily, there are plenty of Muslims who will fight this kind of thinking every step of the way. And I'm definitely one of them. There are two kinds of Islam right now. The Islam of love and the Islam of hate. The haters are sounding off right now but they'll fall. Because hate devours itself, it cannot sustain itself. The Love will endure. Peace x

so we should not agree with ADAM AND STEVE but except and love Prophet Adam(pbuh) and hazrat Eve(pbuh),,,

When we have certain topics to think about, we have to think about our future and the future of Islam, Today we are showing zero tolerance towards Gays/Lesbiens in the next century that might be the only way forward,, lesbians might be forced to inject sperm inside them to reproduce so more future Gays/Lesbiens are created,,,,Slowly the Devil will have its way and Islam will disappear as the signs of Judgement day will be closer, Allah will then destroy everything/everyone and life will be breathed again and Islam is known to spread,,, it is the fastest growing religion!!!

Gays are like a pollution going around the world,,, its worse then dying of birds flu!!

Human beings and animals were designed to reproduce which ofcourse requires for the pairing up of the male and female.

I think we are all intelligent enough to know that this would not happen with two people of the same gender!!!

The FACT is that they cannot reproduce therefore making their practice unnatural!!

People can argue all they like that these people cant help their feelings or who they are attracted to but its not what Allah intended.

As Muslims we are supposed to encourage the spread of Islam.

For every gay couple that exists he/she/they have ended humanity by what they practice... therefore the spread of Islam also ends with them.

So I agree with PP you cannot be a muslim and gay. They have gone against Allahs will and Allah(swt) will END humanity when he sees fit just like he created it with Adam and Eve.

recently in the shariah council, they was a case about a man who lived in UK and used to send money abroad to his parents who were in USA, now this man deprived his wife and child and kept sending the money to his parents who didn't need it as they were not poor and were receiving state benefits,
The parents of this boy, thought it was important for him to send money as they were the parents and they had a right over all his earnings.

now the wife was filing for divorce on the grounds that the husband was depriving her and her child the right over his income and survival was difficult,

VERDICT OF THE SHARIAH:After assessing the situation they said the money the man sent to his family would be classified as HARAM as the parents lived in a country were state benefit was available to them, so no money needed to be sent from the son and the wife should receive it instead!!
If parents lived in a poor country(pakistan/bangladesh etc) then it is a obligation for the son/daughter to send money to them and help them survive as the government does not provide nothing in those countries!!

INSTEAD OF READING ALL HADITH, READ WHAT OUR OTHER PROPHETS (PBUH)DID!!!

I don't agree with you enigmatic_sky, if we Muslims start justifying reasons for Gays, then what happens to our future children!!

If(GOD FORBID) my child wanted to be Gay, i as a parent would be responsible and sinful to allow or accept my child's choice!!!

When you mention the water given to a prostitute, remember that Allah also allowed men to marry 4 times to discourage women to go out and earn like this. Also remember that Allah might be forgiving to those prostitutes as they might had genuine reason to do what they had to do, but Gays have no excuse to practise this sort of disgusting behaviour!!!!

I still feel there is no need for Muslims to accept Gays or to encourage this type of behaviour, if we accept this now then what happens 100 years from now,,,, WHERE WILL ISLAM BE THEN?????

Why do you think, people still do shirrk today, its because others excepted it and now look at this world!!!

sorry for the late arrival but there is no such thing as a gay muslim, you cant be gay & muslim, dont you remember Prophet Lut days....

And Missy ---

A Muslim shows kindness to all human beings because that is his/her character. A hadith states that a man gave water to a prostitute and Allah forgave his sins.

I cannot believe that a man or woman who has the Prophet as his/her model and guide could say such vulgar things or harbour such hatred in his/her heart.

Vulgarity is a sign of hypocrisy and, as Allah says in the Qur'an, the hypocrites will have no protector on the Day of Judgement.

I pray that Allah guide the Muslims and fill their hearts with love and concern for one another. Hatred of our brothers and sisters (however 'sinful' they may be) is a snare of Satan to disunite us in these dark times.

we can only be thankful that there are intelligent muslims like sahadat around.

i am shocked by some of the vulgar comments in this JE. our beloved prophet (peace be upon him) condemned many things as he was directed to by Allah; however, he did it all in a manner befitting someone who fears his Lord. he was never vulgar when he condemned sin.

islam teaches us to abhor sin and to seek refuge in Allah from it. it does not teach us to abhor the sinful, but to pray for their guidance (if they are non-Muslims) and their salvation (if they are Muslims). if you are in doubt about this, then please read Sayyed Qutb's tafsir of Surat Al-Furqan (the section on the Slaves of the Most Merciful).

please do not use Islam or Iman to say vulgar things about Muslims (however 'sinful' they may be). remember that verse which exhorts us to 'call to the way of your Lord with wisdom and beautiful preaching'.

I am utterly shocked that hatred of a sin can cause us to hate other human beings. but truthfully, if your humanity is so fickle perhaps people are not in need of your love?

Well i think u disprove Liya's theory missy.