About Fertility testing:
1- not all tests can be done to a virgin female
2- 15% of causes of infertility is incompatibility between this particular man and his wife i.e. both are technically fertile i.e. if each marries someone else, they can get children.
3- many cases of female fertility can be treated by hiring a surrogate mother which is very controversial in Islam. Otherwise, there is almost always a way for conception in almost all cases of infertility.

that said, you can do all kinds of test yet your chances are not that much better in being an infertile couple.

Also, in 2-3% of all pregnancies there are defects. So do all kind of genetic counseling, you won't have that much better of chances.

Conclusion:

1- All men should do fertility testing because they are quite easy so that the girl would have her options open as after marriage she would be at a disadvantage. However, Men's causes of infertility are always manageable.
2- There are well known preconception tests for the most important genetic diseases especially among particular ethnicities (Thalassemia for Mediterraneans, sickle cell anemia for Blacks, cystic fibrosis for whites). I think those should be done.
3- No matter what you do, you have to have faith in Allah and tawakul. You can't guarantee anything and full happiness is only attained in "reda" with the 'rizq" and "qadar" of Allah. We have to remember that there's always an after life when we will get all what we want if we are content with what we get in this life.

>>You are right every thing should get clarified before people get emotional. But could that happen??

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It is actually much easier than we think sometimes. Many people - I have noted - know beforehand if they have a problem that needs to be addressed (and islamically they have an obligation to do that). Diabetes for example...or maybe a disease that is debilitating of some sort. In one case with a friend of mine, he knew in advance about the infertility...so it was handled nicely in that his mom, told her mother, and they gave the family the freedom to decide before venturing into anything formal.

>>It is a very difficult decision to say that I will accept marrying some one who cann't have babies. But try to put your self in that same situation (not being able to have babies), how would you expect the man to feel towards you. Or really how would you want a man to think about you realizing that you cann't have babies. I mean it goes both ways.
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Dear M82,
Oh, tab3an when I was speaking earlier, I meant it for both the man and the woman. As for how I would expect the man to feel toward me...there are two scenarios: If I know in advance,,prior to marriage....I have to let him know and give him the freedom of choice and I am obligated islamically to let hik know. I know in these cases, some women seek divorced husbands with children already. If this happens after marriage...it would be much difficult (may Allah make His tests easy on us)....but I would still give him the freedom of choice..though secretly would hope that he would be satisfied with Allah's will...and maybe adopt some orphans and raise them well...I think..tough situation..sigh..

What I was trying to say earlier to you however was outlined much nicer by br. Ayman when he said:

"Sometimes when you are emotionally involved you may commit to things you aren't aware that you can't handle but u don't realize it until later when it's too late".

and

"for some, having kids is an essential part of their expectations for marriage and they will not perceive a relationship functional without kids; those should insist on fertility testing before marriage".

Let me add to that is that I have seen many American couples who don't want to have children and they both agree..like one colleague once said "I don't want to bring kids into this evil world"!!!!...and khalas no one bothers them. However in our religion, one of the main components of marriage is to further the progeny on earth, and leave behind strong Muslims who can continue the mission of being Allah's vicegerants on earth...so we have to approach the having children element with different eyes. People are free to make their own choices however...so say a couple still decides to go into a marriage knowing in advance having a child is difficult...culturally speaking, it will definitely be shut down and hardly supported...

As for fertility testing...I think that we are not ready yet in our culture to do and request these things openly without hitting too many unnecessary sensitivities and drama!

I read that in some places in the Muslim world, they are making it a must to go through that otherwise the marriage certificate can't be approved...

That's a million dollar question but I guess, if you decide to not get attached to anyone without a clear understanding that both of you are after marriage is the catch. Allah a3lam

I meant that before you fall in love or get carried away, make sure you do all the homework, that's all :). As for premarital relationships I didn't mean "relationships" but I meant rather friendships when people get carried away "emotionally" without planning it, later they realize that parents have different opinions, that they have different career plans, that they are not ready for any reason or the fertility thing. So my opinion is that I would rather make sure that all the elements that make a marriage successful and functional are in place, first, before I get emotional.

for some, having kids is an essential part of their expectations for marriage and they will not perceive a relationship functional without kids; those should insist on fertility testing before marriage.

Others, albeit their love for kids, can envision a functional relationship without kids; those may not go for fertility testing.

The question is; what if there are different expectations regarding this point? I would say get tested first for everyone to be clear on their expectations and before emotions cloud people's thinking.

Sometimes when you are emotionally involved you may commit to things you aren't aware that you can't handle but u don't realize it until later when it's too late.

That's why I think that thinking, investigating and all of this should take place before love. That's why I think that guys and girls should be very careful about premarital relations and feelings.

M82...your point of view is valuable...but do you think that it is realistic to accept to marry someone who can't have children....there are so many pressures in society...just think of our Egyptian parents and their incessant wishes for grandchildren...and how about your own instinct as a female...do you think you would ever regret it one day in the future?

If it's before marriage, then each individual has to be upfront about it and give the other person the freedom to decide...because having children is an inherent and powerful instinct.

If this is found out after marriage...it always seems in our society that the man is pushed and pressured to remarry...so it is most likely that he would rather than to say this is Allah's will!!!!!! I know it is their right, and an obligation to increase the number of good Muslims in the world...and this is easier with the polygamy card...but I am yet to meet a man who was thankful for Allah's will...and maybe decided with his wife to adopt some orphans which the prophet mentioned so many times (adoption the Islamic way).

if i married someone and found out she can't give birth. i will tell her don't worry about it, God wants that. and we will try until it works. i will not divorce her for this neither i will marry someone else.

unless she takes bills behind my back to prevent her from getting pregnant. then there is a problem.

yeah, I understand that menta

I dont think it would make a difference, therefore it is a waste of time. Who will be willing to leave a great partner if they do the tests and it is determind there is a chance they might have unhealthy kids? If it is easy to leave them, then that person wasnt right for them in the first place.

Yes brother Ayman, DS is diagnosed prenatally with techniques such as amniocentesis.

But again, it gets us into the abortion arena...which according to my humble knowledge, is only permissable if the mother's life is in danger..and which can only be determined by a specialist..

you are right ya amr, I stay corrected but still the other authentic hadith say: "choose for your sperms" and that is more comprehensive. The thing that we shouldn't confuse here is that there are different types of testings:
before marriage or before deciding to have kids: preconception
before birth (while pregnant): prenatal
The preconception is very important but many don't go for it, when we should. In Egypt we have some blood diseases that 1/50 normal people are carrying the genes for and 10% of the population are sick. You want to check up for that and it is a simple blood test.

Prenatal tests are more used but for those who don't accept the concept of abortion (like myself) it is for little benefit.

Down's syndrome can be diagnosed by prenatal but not preconception, isn't that right Muslima?

I guess that Hossam was asking about preconception and that's the one that most "families" don't agree with.

I think testing before marriage is ok although it is not common in our culture...

Aymoon,
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I really appreciate your knowledge and mashaaAllah I learnt a lot from your posts, but I know that this hadith is very weak... although as hossam said it is handy to cite it for genisits.. but there are other correct ones that say the same thing... www.werathah.com (sorry it is in Arabic)

Please ya Ayman let me know if you are sure that this hadith is correct.

Autism...no, unfortunately...they have not been able to detect it via genetic testing. The causes are also theories up until this point, though mostly believed to be a genetic disorder. Scary though that there are more and more detected cases in the past few years...

3afana Allahu gamee3an...

Yes br. Shehab...I think there are tests that can detect things like Down Syndrome and similar things because such genes have been identified.

Tough tough tough...
May Allah make things easy on all of us insha'Allah..

Regarding Masreya's question about whether you would keep a child with the knowledge they'll be disabled in some way....but are we talking about abortion, or giving it up for adoption? As abortion is a whole different matter.

The best opinion I ever heard about this...is that it can be an ibtila2 (test) from Allah that can produce your ticket to Jannah insha'Allah....

I find that many traditional middle-eastern men are against the whole testing idea...as if it insults their manhood or something...as opposed to more acculturated individuals who are more accepting of it..

sobhana allah. he (S) knows about this 1400 years ago. it's True inherited genes cause problems

I think it is pretty wise to do so, The prophet (SAW) says in a hadith "takhayro leno6afekom fa2enna al3erqa dassas" which means in english: choose for your sperm as traits are interited. Please forgive my transliteration and translation.

i believe with all these disease we hear about it today, it becomes important.