there never was a true islamic state after the prophet and there never will be. we must admit this is the best type of govermental system a nation can have ....perhaps switzerland

FDog, I'm not that left-off center to hold all traditions in contempt. Mamad, I am not being intolerant as I never said someone shouldn't keep a beard. Rather, I was trying to imlpy that there should never be a regime like Taliban where one would be flogged for NOT having a beard. AIM, thanks for the input but i still can't reconcile with your point of view. We'll just have to let the discussion rest at that.

Hijabijinan, I'm sorry if I flew off the handle. I didn't mean to. As Aim correctly said I brought some of my own personal experience and history into the matter. The dramatic failure of the Islamist regime in Iran (in only one generation) put together with my family and I having to migrate to England for a better future, obviously plays a role in my thoughts about an Islamic state.

From what I've read, here and in the past, the beard is considered wajib. Raid, we must be tolerant of all people. Religion is a very personal thing. You must understand that something that may appear 'trivial' to one person, may hold a lot of importance to another.

"this stifling of diversity..." i agree with raid

On the same note, the sweeping liberal interpretation of islam which holds all tradition in contempt is what makes me mad. Perhaps we can come to some agreement on a center raid?

I just think in comes from you lack of understanding of the importance of hadeeth. You might think that the beard has no signifance but Allah SWT knows best. The Hadiths I quoted are Sahee and Hassan, they are from Bukhari and Muslim, so they are authentic. I understand what you mean about some things the prophet did that we don't necesssarily have to do. For example the prophet (S) did not like to eat shrimp, but we are not forbidden to eat it. IT was just a matter of preference. However about the beard, the prophet (S) said Allah SWT had ordered him to grow his beard, so it was divine commandment not his choice. He also stressed the importance of it in MANY hadiths that I did not list becuase I didnt want to make your eyes tired. But if you really want to, you could look them up and I am sure you'll find more than you can read about the beard. Akhi I suggest that you study a topic called the "Imporatance and Authority of the Sunnah". I think it'll help you understand. However if you are satisfied with your decision and feel that you are comfortable there is no need.

Well AIM, I can see where you are coming from. One thing, not all hadiths are authoratative. Secondly, of course there are some things about our prophet that we should emulate. These things are his modesty and his affable characteristics. However, having or not having a beard had absolutely no impact on what kind of a person he was. God gave us a mind to think for ourselves. He ordered us to emulate our prophet because he was the best among mankind. However, saying that we should have a beard because our prophet had one doesn't make sense. This stifling of diversity is what angers me about the conservative interpretation of islam. It places too much emphasis on triviality.

Raid, Brother I dont think you have a misunderstanding about the beard. I will explain to you that Allah SWT does care if we keep a beard. First off the question is why should a Muslim keep a beard. The answer is quite simple. Our Prophet Mohammad (S) kept a beard and never shaved it so it became a wajib (somehting mandated). He also expressed in many hadiths that every Muslim man who can grow a beard should go grow a beard. The length of the beard is different by opinions of the uelema. BUt just to clarify, someone one might say, the Prophet (S) did it, doesnt mean we have to becuase its not written in the Quran. However we can look to a to many places in the Quran where Allah SWT says "athi-ullahi wa athi-ur-rasool" By this Allah SWT has said "obey Allah and obey his Rasool" How ever if you look at the way Allah SWT revealed this these ayats, it is amazaing (subhanallah). He emphasized the importance of following Rasullullah (S). Allah SWT could have just said it ahth-ullaha wa Rasool (Obey Allah and his messenger) but He said "Athi-ullahi wa athi-ur-rasool" which he says Obey Allah and OBEY his Rasool. While saying "athi" he emphasized the importance of Rasulullahs (S) sunnah. Now that we have established that the sunnah is manditory to follow. We seperate the sunnah in to 4 catagories which are: His Actions, Sayings, Approval and Disapproval, and Appearance. So obviously by the hadiths on his "approval and disapproval" and "appearance" , we find that the the beard is wajib, and that Allah is displeased with those who dont grow a beard. Allah SWT is displeased with those who Rasulullah (S) is displeased with. Here is hadith about the beard: When the two messengers of Kisraa (Khusru ? the Persian King) came to Rasulullah , they had long moustaches and shaved beards. Rasulullah mentioned, ?But my Lord has commanded me to lengthen my beard and shorten my moustache.? (Tabaqaat ibn Sa?ad vol.1 pg.147; Taareekh Tabari vol.2 pg.267-266; Bidaaya wan Nihaaya). Another famous one on growing the beard: Imaam Bukhari (Rahimahullaah) reports on the authority of Imaam Naafi' who narrates from Sayyiduna Abdullah ibn Umar (Radhiallaahu Anhu) that Rasulullah (Sallallaahu Alayhi Wasallam) said, "Oppose the Mushrikeen (polytheists); lengthen the beards and trim the moustaches.". These 2 hadiths show that from Rasulullahs "sayings" and "approval/disapproval" that the beard is wajib. This next hadith will show the beard as sunnah fromt he appearance of Rasulullah (S): Hasan bin Ali (Radiallahu anhu) reported: "I inquired from my maternal uncle (Sayyiditina Fatimah Radiallahu anha's step brother) Hind bin Abi Haalah (Radiallahu anhu) about the noble features of the Rasulullah (Sallallahu alaihe wasallam). He had often described the noble features of Rasulullah (Sallallahu alaihe wasallam) in detail. The uncle descirbed the noble features by saying: "Rasulullah (Sallallahu alaihe wasallam) had a very luminous complexion (colour), and a wide forehead. He had dense and fine hair on his eye brows. Both eye brows were seperate and did not meet each other in the middle. There was a vein between them that used to expand when he became angry. His nose was prominemt and had a nur and lustre on it. When one first looked at him, it seemed as if he had a large nose, but looking at it carefully showed that the lustre and beauty made it look large, otherwise in itself the nose was not large." His BEARD WAS FULL AND DENSE. The pupil of his eye was black. His cheeks were full and full of flesh. The mouth of Rasulullah (Sallallahu alaihe wasallam) was moderately wide. (He did not have a small mouth). His teeth were thin and bright. The front teeth had a slight space between them" From these 3 hadiths we learn the Rasulullah (S) kept a beard, said it was obligated to keep a beard and disapproved of those who didnt keep a beard. So akhi, I hope that if you read this, you will understand that we only keep a beard to gain Allah SWTs pleasure, and Allah SWT does care, becuase those who dont are going against the sunnah of Rasulullah and those who go against the sunnah are going against Allah SWT, and Allah SWT knows best.

Why do we always come back to the beard issue. Call me blasphemous but do you really think God gives a damn if you have a beard or not? Beard is simply a style...it doesn't make a man more virtuous or evil for that matter.

"No need for an Islamic state." Huh? An Islamic state is EXACTLY what the world needs! If you don't think so, then you don't know what an Islamic state is. Because quite frankly, no one living today has ever lived in one.

May Allah increase both our Iman and knowledge...ameen.

jazakullah sister, but I am sure you have more knowledge than me, I just take teh time to write =P

Mamad, The fist point I would like to make is that you are incorporating your own views into this. I am looking from the standpoint of Rasululllah (S). Where did he go first to establish the Islamic State? He went to Madinah where 2 tribes had accepted Islam and waiting for him. He did not immediately ask them to convert, but as soon as he established and army he evenutally sent out dawaah. He gave them the three options, Islam, Jizya (tax), or War (dont get me wrong, it is not that simple, I am just stating the phases, and was trying to be blunt). Eventually through Jizya (tax) and War, he conquered the entire Arabia from Saudia to Oman. Mamad, I dont think you understand that Hijrah (Migration) is a vital part of our religion. There are many verses in the Quran and I will quote a few so you can see. Allah says: To those who leave their homes in the cause of Allah, after suffering oppression,- We will assuredly give a goodly home in this world; but truly the reward of the Hereafter will be greater. If they only realised (this)! (They are) those who persevere in patience, and put their trust on their Lord. (Surah Nahal 16:41-42). Allah also says in the Quran: He who forsakes his home in the cause of Allah, finds in the earth Many a refuge, wide and spacious: Should he die as a refugee from home for Allah and His Messenger, His reward becomes due and sure with Allah: And Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful (surah Nisah 4:100). Allah says: Those who believed, and adopted exile, and fought for the Faith, with their property and their persons, in the cause of Allah, as well as those who gave (them) asylum and aid,- these are (all) friends and protectors, one of another. As to those who believed but came not into exile, ye owe no duty of protection to them until they come into exile; but if they seek your aid in religion, it is your duty to help them, except against a people with whom ye have a treaty of mutual alliance. And (remember) Allah seeth all that ye do. (surah Anfal (8:72). Allah says this about the people who do not migrate: Verily! As for those whom the angels take (in death) while they are wronging themselves (as they stayed among the disbelievers even though emigration was obligatory for them), they (angels) say to them: "In what condition were you?" They reply: "We were weak and oppressed on earth". The angels say: "Was not the earth spacious enough for you to emigrate therein?" Such men will find their abode in Hell - What an evil destination. Except for the weak ones among men, women and children who are unable to devise a plan, nor to direct their way. For these there is hope that Allah will forgive them, and Allah is Ever Oft Pardoning, Oft-Forgiving (surah nisa 4: 97-99). Allah also says that he will ask you why didnt migrate: Verily! As for those whom the Angels have taken (in death) while they are wronging themselves (as they stayed among the disbelievers even though emigration was obligatory to them), they (angels) asked them, "In what condition were you?". They replied, "We were weak and oppressed on earth". The Angels asked, "Was not the earth of Allah spacious enough for you to migrate therein? Such men will find their abode in Hell - what an evil destination (Surah Nisa (4:97). Mamad, obviously we can see here that it had been madated on us that we move to an Islamic country. We must strive to elect a just ruler, and one who implements the shariah of Allah SWT. What is more important to people is the questoin. Is their job or the love for Allah? Thier wealth or their love for Allah? It was MUCH harder for the muhajirs at the time of Rasulullah (S), for they endured much more hardships not only at the hands of the enemies of Allah but also in travelling and issues of that nature. I agree that right now the Muslims lands (note i did not put Islamic government) are ruled by unjust and filthy rulers. May Allah SWT correct them or finish them. But if a state comes, it is our duty to move there for the sake of Allah. Just as when we make our hard earned money, it is our duty to pay zakat. Mamad, actually for your information, Rasulullah did not ask anyone to leave madinah, they accepted him and called for him. Eventually after he conquered Arabia, the ones who did not believe had their own areas in the city where they could practice waht they wanted to as long as it was not against the moral codes of Islam, such as gambling, drinking, prostitution, and things of that nature. The Muslism taht disgree witht the idea of state implementing all of Allah laws completely and accepting no other form of law are in disagreement with ISlam than. Allah has ordered us to have a state, and Rasulullah has shown us how. So if they dont want to live in that state, they will have to answer to Allah. There are many ayats and hadiths pertaining to these people and how they are not from amoung the believers. If you want I could post them up, but I feel this is long enough.

Hijabijinan, no aim didn't have the right idea. Wherever you build this Islamic state, it will mean people having to 'leave' as you say. 'Leave' and go where exactly? This has been their home for generations. They are from the land and have history there. Did the Prophet ask the Jews of Medina to leave? No. Did he try and forcefully convert them? No. Your vision will appeal to a section of the community and that is all. Just as many Jews disagree with Israel and her policies, so will many Muslims disgree with yours. It is simply not possible. And you may pretend that God will be running the country, but it will just be a dictatorship. Who was in charge of the Taliban, God or Mullah Omar? Who runs Israel today? God, or a war criminal? Who runs Iran today? God, or a bunch of greedy blood sucking mullahs?

Aim...I get your point. But, there is a danger in forcing religion, an 'ideology', on a group of people. One: If you want to have an Islamic state, you must ensure the majority of people are Muslim. Two: The moral police will have the right to carry out 'Islamic punishments' such as lashings and executions, which will contravene all accepted human rights laws. Three: all the educated doctors, engineers and lawyers will leave for better work opportunities and a better life abroad. What you will be left with sounds a lot like the Israel of today, where those with the harshest and most extreme views end up running the country. Just as there should be no Jewish state/nation, there is no need for an Islamic state.

Zz what does the Zoroastrian religion have to do with anything?...the Arabs originally worshiped idols. At least Zoroastrianism was a monotheistic religion and had its own book. I don't see what you're getting at.

Iranians were originally Zoroastrians.

mamad, I believe that Iran had a different method of Islamic implementation all together. I personally do not consider it an Islamic State. For example, do you think at the time of the prophet (S), those women didnt want to wear hijab? From their stories we learn, they took pride in wearing hijab. The problem is the society in which surrounds us. Another example: it is hard for a Muslim male to grow out a full beard here in this country and at the same time fit in. Most young people are cleaned shaved, have line beards, have goatees, and whatever other styles. Even though a Muslim man does it for the sake of Allah, he still feels that he is "differenet". But becuase of his Iman level, his love for Allah over powers that, However a person with weaker iman would not be able to do this and would not grow a beard. However if we lived in an Islam society and we were treated fairly and justly (with in the boundries of Islam), it would be the norm. Most males would have a full beard, and it would be the "style". The same would apply for hijab and other things which are Islamic. Do you get where I am heading to? Side note, by the way I am not saying that automatically a perosn who wears a beard or hijab is more religious than the non beard or non hijab. Wallahu Alam. I was just giving an example of a person who is truly close to his Deen.

Aim...the problem is, if you force something on people, it backfires. It's taken only one generation for the Mullahs in Iran's vision to come off the rails. Iran in the Shah's time despite what people think was a conservative religious country. Now, there's no such thing as morality or religion left. As the link shows, you can force the hijab, you can jail and lash people for not wearing it, but at the end of the day it won't work.
www.iranian.com

mamad, the jews and christians will have their districts and they can do what they want there. They can preach, erect churches, and dress as they please. Howeever thhings like brothels and stuff wont be tolerated.