In many occasions Allah urges his messenger to tell people that there is no AJR (wage) for what he does for them (his prophet hood). For example see SABAA' 47 or SAAD 86:

38:86 Say (O Muhammad, unto mankind): I ask of you no fee for this, and I am no simulating.


So how come in some verses Allah ask his messenger to tell people there is no wage for his prophet hood and in one verse he says there is? Is there any contradict in Quran? We take refuge to Allah for such interpretation. There is no contradict if we understand it right. It will not be in contradict if the wage and returning the favor be in line with the prophet hood itself, if the wage is strengthening the main concept and doctrine of his prophet hood.



One part of prophet hood is about the leadership of the nation and safeguarding the prophet's teachings. This leadership should continue after the prophet. Now what if the leadership should be done by the close relatives of the prophet? Wouldn't the LOVING OF PROPHET'S GHORBAA (the close relative) be in line we the nature of the prophet hood? Do you think the contradict will still be there if we interpret the verse as such?

But if one still believes that from "loving GHORBAA of Mohammed" it cannot be concluded they are successors of the prophet then the contradict which I mentioned before will remain unsolved. How come loving his family can be in line with his prophet hood and considered as its wage if the family is considered as ordinary?

IT IS ABOUT LOVING GHORBAA OF MOHAMMAD (HIS AHLEBAIT) BECAUSE THEY ARE APPOINTED BY ALLAH TO SUCCEED HIM. IF ONE LOVES THEM TRULY IT ENCOURAGES HIM TO FOLLOW THEM AFTER THE PROPHET,

Khalidi said:

the meaning of AHL:

Ahl is used for blood relatives AS WELL AS FOLLOWERS. The Quran states about the followers of Firawn, that they are the AAL-E-FIRAWN, and it is quite obvious that what is referred to here is his followers.

Thus, when a Muslims wishes his prayers upon AALE-MUHAMMAD (S), it includes ALL THE FOLLOWERS OF MUHAMMAD (S). This is further confirmed by the Quran when Allah says about the believers that they are well-wishers to one another, and they pray for their forgiveness.


Totally irrelevant to our discussion. The verse has used the word of GHORBAA.

Khalidi said:

The quoted verse:

a. The verse is directed to the leaders of Quraysh, i.e. the DISBELIEVERS. It is rhetorical and has nothing to do with the command of loving the ahl-bayt or their weight in religious matters.

b. The verse is essentially meant to appeal to the Quraysh and their blood relationship with the Prophet (S). The leaders of Quraysh should really think about their disbeliefe, because it is THEIR VERY BLOOD who is reminding them to turn to God. Because they are the
Prophet's blood relationship, and they are very close through this, they should not hesitate in accpeting this truth.


In Quraish there were 2 types of people: disbelievers and believers

If this verse is addressing disbelievers then don't you think it looks absurd? A disbeliever should return a favor which he did not take from the Prophet? A disbeliever does not believe Mohammed (SAAW) prophet hood how come he should believe there was a favor and he has to return the favor the prophet?
It's like some one comes to your door, drops a T shirt, but you say I did not ask for it and I am not going to take it, but they guy claims you owe him some money. Money for what? For something you did not ask and did not take?

STINKYSword you giving fatwas now??.... "if u were to enter the shia village, enter it with ur left foot like u enter the najis washroom"

So if i was to step on you would I have to use my left foot, since you're full of crap?

Psychedelic, I absolutely don't think there is anything naiive about my comment. There is definitely hatred on both sides, and I don't mean general hatred, but I mean plenty of it. Like I said, I don't speak for all shias in the world, some shias don't even do anything different from what sunnis do. I do know that when you go to lebanon and see the arab shias there, you will be somewhat surprised how much they hate us. And they were the aggressors for many years when Palestinians first moved to lebanon in 48 and thereafter.

Mehnaz, sorry this is what I read..."you are still welcome to email me questions or come over to shias"...I had a feeling you may have meant the village, no harm done.

I'll look into these books and see what they're about when I have some time. Right now I am reading a book about Al-Khawarij, and listening to the series of seerat Sayyidna Umar (Radheya Allahu anhu- may Allah be pleased with him and bless his soul) by Anwar el Awlaqi. I just finished listening to a series about the signs and leading up to the Day of Judgement by Abdulhakim Quik. This is stuff that makes you worry more about yourself and your own deeds than other things in life.

May Allah guide us all on the right path and let us see the right as right and the wrong as wrong.

Silkysword, the ironic thing about this thing is I truly believe that Saddam killed everyone just the same. An oppressor is an oppressor, you won;t be safe from him because you're sunni, the husbands of his daughters were killed by him, and he killed by the masses from his country. He's like any arab traitor leader, they all kill if you say on3e bad thing about the government, regarding your colour, shape, background or sect.

keeper bro, u know so well how ignorant and lying western thinkers or western media are :) look how the poor shia is citing THEM as references on the alleged injustice they were treated with in muslim history and in iraq!

few days ago a kuwaiti newspaper interviewed the premier of (the province of) Najaf in occupied Iraq (i.e., he's GOT to be a shia), and...in the middle of his talk about whatever, he talked about the shia, and guess what? he mentioned they are SIX MILLIONS ONLY in iraq!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! i have a screenshot of that article i'll upload soon!! and everybody knows iraq's population is over 20 millions, so what does this make the percentage of the shia in iraq??? 30%??? looooool! majority my foot!!! who would want to believe the most lying sect (according to ibn Taymiyah and Shafi'i and others, until an arab saying emerged revolving around the Shia's excessive lying: "he's a liar bigger than a Rafidhi", it would be said)!!!! they lied about everything in muslim history, from who abu bakr was, to omar, to othman, to aysha, to the prophet himself, to ali, to hussein, to karbala, the umayyids, the abbasids, until saddam now!!!!! by allah, the arab poet who said the following (which i'll translate) said the truth: "the Rafidah (Shia) are the worst of those who ever walked on the earth, from among mankind and jinn - innal rawaafidha sharru mann wati2al 7asaa, min kulli insin naa6iqin aw jaani".

keeper, these people don't know their own books, so they don't know that we have more than enough books on everything that makes us 'us', and them 'them', on all those issues they arouse including their claim of being the majority in iraq!!!! many iraqis from the academic realm wrote proving that sunnis were always the majority!!!

if u were to enter the shia village, enter it with ur left foot like u enter the najis washroom. but i advise u not to. just keep it on ur watch list and laugh from far, and thank allah for making u a muslim.

and i have an article in arabic by a shia iraqi disproving those who say saddam's regime was sunni-dominated; it was FULL of shia, and there was no favouritism based on one's religion!!! saddam's iraq's vice-preisdent was a kurd (taha yasin ramadan), the foreing affairs minister was christian (tariq aziz), the head of parliament was sa3doun hammadi (a shia, and who was married to my uncle's wife's cousin, i.e., a palestinian),...all that mattered was that the appointed one was 'secular'!! only after 1991 did saddam turn into religion but in a sloppy way, its observed, however none really lost his office cuz of his madhab/religion. sahhaf, the media minister during the american invasion till the downfall of saddam..was SHIA!!! he was the most seen iraqi official then, and the most famous; his fame even surpassed that of saddam now in the arab world!!

much can be said to disprove every letter a shia ever wrote, now, or in the past, be it a near past or distant past. we have more than ample evidence, ..but these ppl because they don't read for us, cuz we are not 'translated' to their english language like they translate their stupid works like 'then i was guided' or whatever...., they think we have nothing to argue with!!! u cowards, u ignorants, are so afraid of us where u know our hujjah (proofs)! the sunni/salafi vs. shia debate on al-Mustaqillah made the shia in iran and hizbullah scream from pain, asking ppl to turn off their TV's, to boycott the station; they were exposed like never before in front of the arab world!!! everybody heard those who cursed the sahabah and mothers of believers, everybody learned the false beliefs of the shia and laughed!!! everybody saw how stupid the once-sufi tijani was, or the once-sufi hasan shihata (the egyptian) is!!!

anyways,..i've been on a break, and should travel to morocco soon. will miss reading shia jokes here.

until i'm back, have sometime to breathe here, o shia, but never for long. i'm preparing for u lots of surprise.

want gifts from morocco? lol

take care, keeper bro, and keep in touch.

keeper, i asked you to come to "shias" village, not the shia creed. );

Salaams Keeper,

You seem like a level-headed guy and I respect your desire for useful dialogue. But your assertion that hate exists on both sides is a bit naive. It may, but it has been proven over and over again in history that those in majority and/or those in power will overwhelmingly persecute the minority.

---------------------------------

The Shia have been persecuted for a thousand years:
Please read the following books:

(i) MAQATIL-UT-TALIBEEN, by Abul Faraj Isfahani (stories of the killings of the Shia families and the descendants of the Prophet at the hands of oppressive Umayyad and Abbasid governments in the period starting from 38th year of Hijra to the 300th year of Hijra.

(ii) A Socio-Intellectual History of the Isna Ashari Shia in India - by Prof. S.A.A. Rizvi, M'arfat Publishing, Canberra, Australia (Stories of the killings and persecution of the Shia in the 700 history of India)

(iii) The Succession to Muhammad, by Wlfred Madelung, Cambridge University Press, 1997 (Stories of killings and persecution of the Shia in the early days by Mu'awiyyah's forces)

(iv) The Arab Shia: The Forgotten Muslims, by Graham E. Fuller and Rend Rahim Francke. New York: Saint Martin's Press, 1999. 190 pages, with notes and selected bibliography. $49.95, hardback.

Robert Brenton Betts
Visiting professor at the University of Balamand, Lebanon.

(v) The Shiis of Iraq, Ytzak Nakkash, Princeton Papaerbacks (Stories of the persecution of the Shia in Iraq)

Additionally, please look at the following websites: www.dissidentvoice.org www.nmhschool.org www.shianews.com

For the large scale killings of Shia doctors in pakistan in the last eight years, please consult the various newspapers in Pakistan.

For the large scale killings of the Shia majority members in Iraq at the hands of Saddam Hussein, please see the CNN archives and the records published by human rights organizations around the world...

The Sunni majority have been oppressing the Shia minority for several hundred years. Although, you cannot blame the entire Sunni community for that, it is a handful of hateful people perpetrating the oppression.

However, the whole community becomes complicit in it if they do not raise a voice of protest against the zulm. That is simple logic.

It is very easy for a majority to oppress a minority. No one can stop that except the majority community itself by self-education and by adopting human values of tolerance and pluralism. That too is common sense.

By the way Mehnaz, if you hate my guts, then that's your issue, I don't hate anyone, and just because I lash out it does not mean I suddenly despise the other person or want their head on a platter.

If you still feel hatred after this, then I have nothing more I could say to change things. This is my view and the last two entries I just typed, without anger...without excessive emotions, are straight from the heart.

hope you all had a good weekend.

Mehnaz, no, I don't come on here to fight, and I was one of the very first people in this village when it was laid back and reasonable.

Like I told you, I have no issue discussing topics and speaking with respect. But when I feel there was a certain tone of speaking down to someone, I will get defensive. I appologize if my reaction was equivalent to what led to it. Also, I probably should have asked about the one statement you made, but to me that doesn't justify being completely lacking of emotion towards anyone who isn't shia and saying everything they believe in is cr@p. I've never called other people's beliefs cra@p, even if I believe in my heart it isn't solid and proven facts.

Also, about all the massacring, isn't it ironic that everyone talks in a biased perspective about who is getting massacred?....Mehnaz, you may be right about certain things, but in all honesty, there is extreme and hardcore people from every sect, even yours. So to come and tell me "look how we get badly massacred etc...etc..." I could easily counter and tell you about how the shia arabs I know hate my guts with a passion without ever hearing of me as soon as they know I'm Palestinian because there is barely any Palestinian shias.

The hate goes both ways, I would like to think I am not hateful, but in all honesty, from all I've seen (not just with shias but with a lot of people from all shapes colours and sizes), I am cautious who to trust and whose ideas I take. I listen attentively, then I look for proofs and on the most part, it had better be more than one source.

And another thing, I appreciate your offer, but I don't feel I am so out of sinc with my God that I have to "come to shias" as you put it. I respect the Prophet (salla Allahu alaihi wa sallam) and he will always be the number one man in history , past present and future, in my mind, everyone else is distant after him. I also respect the sahabas (may Allah be pleased with them and bless them with paradise as the Prophet s.a.w. has given them glad tidings for) and wives and family (may Allah bles all their hearts and souls). I feel very solid on my grounds and have nothing to prove to anyone else.

Remember something, I am always open for a good discussion and rebuttals are good....but within reason and respect. If respect is lost, then the discussion becomes a maniacal mudslinging event. Not interested in that.

If on my part I have said something that offended anyone I do appologize, but that's my persona and don't want to be held accountable for trespassing on anyone's rights in front of my Lord on the day of judgement. I hope the feeling is mutual Mehnaz.

And no, I don;t want you to frown any time you see me...ahahah...but nothing nicer than a sincere smile when you see anyone. (And I won't try and pretend I'm in your head and know your intentions, only Allah knows that).

The best thing to do sometimes is just calm down, relax, and sit back and listen, and I speak for me before anyone else when I say this, if we give ourselves the benefit of the doubt before we strongly and psychotically kill our keyboards with the lashing responses, I'm sure we would be more constructive than destructive.

That's my two (million?:() cents.

thats a brilliant idea, silky!

I'm in a hurry now, so I'll make this slap quick:

HassanDady, I think Iblees can be seen in your pictures!! please, readers, go check out his pictures, and tell me if you don't see the child of the marriage between Ibless and some gay person!

also, plz, tell ur authorities that I want to go to Iraq! i'd LOVE it there, man!!! i want to do this to Shia like my beloved mujahidin did >>> 1.blurg.com

i.e., i don't like to blow myself up unless i were to target hundreds at once! otherwise i'd rather live longer and kill more Badr militiamen like u see in that video :)

If Iraq is not possible, then I'd choose Palestine (even though I have differences with Hamas). if not, then can I make it Chechnya? if not, then plz how about it Kashmir? lol

"s what drives us for liberation until we inherit all the land of allah and establish the next caliphate. it won't be ur sufi deobandi type, no. arabs arent' deobandis, and whether u like it or not..arabs are ur masters of the deen, love of whom is a pillar of ur iman."

Hey silky weren't the taliban the closest ones to establish a gov't? They were deobandis weren't they? Lets compare them to your wahabis. Taliban stood their ground and went head on with the most powerful nation in the world. Your precious wahabis have been being raped by the most powerful nation in the world...for 50 years lol...dirty A-rab your ancestors are probably khawarij...

Another thing to note is that for something to be established mutawattir, it obviously must not only be ninterrupted in respect to distances, but TIME AS WELL..

there is a CONTINUOUS UNINTERRUPTED BREAK in practice... Muslims have been praying five times a day, everyday, back to the Prophet (S)... no dictator, no oppressor could remove this...

I don't know Khiladi... shias have been restricted from practicing their religious rites for centuries, so umm yes, I do think so. So much so that many Syeds lost their shia identities by doing Taqaiyyah for fear of their lives (ie and never told their kids about shia Islam). And these rites and interpretations are exactly what were kept intact because of Imam Husayn (AS), despite the persecution Shias have faced. This persecution continues until today in Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Bahrain, Malaysia, Iraq under Saddam, Pakistan and more.

Have you heard of the concept of 'tawattur' as defined by both SHIA and sunni commentators? A certain fact becomes tawattur, when so many narrators have related something that it is IMPOSSIBLE FOR THAT MANY PEOPLE TO AGREE ON A LIE. Further, the idea of geographical distances increases the nature of tawatur because two people from TWO TOTALLY DIFFERENT REGIONS RELATING THE SAME THING is less likely to result in a lie..

Now, consider this with the Islamic advance... by the time of Yazeed, and let us leave the details of advanement aside for a moment, there was already a cultural infusion of PRACTICES as well as the QURANIC RECITATION going on that permeated the various nooks and corners of the Islamic empire... this was happening IRRESPECTIVE of the RULERS... further, the very nature of these two, i.e. the recitation of the Quran and the dynamnic practice of a sunnah also increase the possibility that such a thing was not a lie... a practice is not like a hadeeth, where a hadeeth relies on one or two narrators who perceive a particular meaning... the quran, unlike hadeeth, is a recited tex... its style, the way it is recited, the manner in it being recited by people, both by themselves and in prayer show that t is very conducive to transmitting itself...

here, you have a DYNAMIC, LIVING PHENOMENON OF TRANSMISSION that is beyond the hands of a few individuals..

even if a certain group was persecuted for a different practice, the fact that this groups practice does not find a consesus throghotu all geographical reigions proves that it is not TAWATUR and ESTABLISHED... this has NO RELEVANCE to the issue of MUTAWATTIR, which the conditions of impossibility of agreeing upon a lie are not found in these 'other practices' especially after time progresses, such as when Yazeed came into power...


Whether the meaning or practice of salat could have changed is certainly up for debate. It won't be solved here. And Islam is not only salat. There are many other methods to change the meaning of a religion or culture slowly over time. And conquest can change culture. Look at what the Crusades did to Southern Spain. There are millions of Spaniards walking around who don't know about their Moorish/Muslim roots because of conquest and forcible conversion. Surely, changing the meaning of a religion in people's minds is easier than actually changing their religion.

But the fact is this innovations were confined to a PARTICULAR REGION, meaning they do not show any uninterrupted transmission and were never mutawattir.

Simply by the fact that something is mutawattir, one can trace that a practice was introduced in some point of time after the fact.. this is precisely why many of the debates between sunni and shia do not differ OVER THE NATURE OF THE RELIGION, but interpretation.. other differences result out of HADEETH, which are by no way mutawattir...

for example, we discuss whether a particular interpretation of a Quranic verse is valid or not... both agree the Quran has been protected, even froma purely secular sense..

You know as much as i don't like hasanbush the least bit i'd havta agree with him. Silky ur full of crap. If you really hate this country you'd be gone by now...Why don't u take hasanbush up on his offer and see if he can get you back to palestine...

LOL silky is talking about my bad adab? hilarious

"none of u, not a galaxy's planets full of ur likes, can stand before me"

whoa partner, that sounds a lot like what Iblis said to Allah, before he became 'Satan'

"z i can't go back to palestine due to problems with my papers, otherwise..i'd spit on this part of the world along with u in it."

ohhh please --- you love it here --- believe me, you don't have a paper problem

as a matter of fact, why don't you email me your name and address ---- there's a number I could call with your info

seriously, you could be on a flight, out of this country, within days, for FREE --- that's something I would love to accomodate

I can't really disclose what the destination is though

Hahahaha.. Funny you mention "i told u something in brief..but very, very deep: not u, nor ANYONE here, can use something about me, or i say, against me i've really not taken care of all the last comments written by ignoramuses like u and others here"

I use that same method on you.. with the way you act.

And you goin on saying stuff like "hate to break it to u like that, budd, but u can't win with me in deen,"
WHO made you God?... you talking blasphemy there.... When I last heard.. Allah can only judge one's deen...
Would that be considered shirk??

I'm also a history grad dumbass.

tsk tsk tsk tsk, u r still trying? guy, i told u something in brief..but very, very deep: not u, nor ANYONE here, can use something about me, or i say, against me i've really not taken care of all the last comments written by ignoramuses like u and others here, u can see how from few lines i can writes volumes. that's how 'rich' my mind is, as compared to urs (u? 'cut and paste' from online jews -congrats, u must have went right away to google something out and use it against me, but i'm a history grad, and u won't excel me 'in my own field'; yeah, hate to break it to u like that, budd, but u can't win with me in deen, nor in arabic, nor in history. u sure will if we were to talk about the 'entertainment industry' -movies, music, and what have u), but nothing higher than than level of urs can ur pathetic mind transcend for now.

i'll educate u on our palestinian history, and the definition of an arab according to prophet muhammad, and i can refer u to a book in Mills library at ur univ of McMaster to read the hadith for urself.

until the next time,....hard luck, loser.