Sahadat, I understand your angle, but i think people are not talking about how to balance or when is it right to say something is wrong. we are all simply talking about JUST homosexuality, we are not trying to say only this sin should be pointed out. None of us i feel need to bring out book of sins and then let others see before we can comment.

i agree mary. the personality is important. But this journal was dedicated to dispelling some tales about Islam and acceptance of Homo-practicse in the religious arena.

Gala is right, living in this society, tolerance is needed, but that does not mean acceptance and support.

We are all talking here from a religious perspective. not secular. Javed you make very good points, the importance of family, the natural order of things are there to be kept.

I used a similar example a while ago, you see the UK has allowed Gay Marriages and my friend argued that if the masses agree to a certain right of humans, it should be allowed (isnt that what is happening with gay marriages), then i pointed out If in the near future Paedophilia became the norm, that is it right? to which he had no answer.

i wonder what the supporters of gay marriages would say to that.

What is important in our social world is a foundation which is not altered. Like the Ten commandments, we need a base on which to build and live. If you settle on a lake where nothing is stable, how can you promise anything? Humans are NOT reliable, responsible, we DO NOT know what is best for us. If you leave us to our own devices we shall perish if Allah bids the same way many a many people did in the tales of the Qu;ran. We do not learn.

I agree... Gala, that was a nice story!

and Mysticlvr... my middle name is actually Catharine. I'm stuck with the first name, Mary. (How catholic sounding is that?! I see you converted from Catholicism)

gala - nice story. :)

ms catherine - i agree. and nice name by the way (I have the same name)

"People take different roads seeking fulfillment and happiness. Just because they're not on your road doesn't mean they've gotten lost." - Jackson Brown (Life's Little Instruction Book)

I do care about people practices and what do they stand for in life. but for this particular topic and especially for us living in the west, acceptance and tolerance is a lot better than rejection and condemnation.
There was a great scholar in Damascus about a century ago, he was one of the top scholar in the world, he used to go around the first day of Eid and many other occasion and go visit the places where prostitute used to congregate. and then give them gifts and small positive lectures about being virtues. It was said that he managed to turned many of them to the straight path that way.

I honestly do not care if people are gay or straight. It's their personalities that make me like them or dislike them. Not their sexual preference. Maybe it's the liberal-ness in me. I honestly, in this point of my life, don't care what religion says about this issue :) Well, I care a little... :)

nature verses nurture

Sahadat, I disagree on one point. You can teach certain things .. for example, boys are taught by their parents (father especially) to be macho and bold and are encouraged take part in contact sports rather than figure skating. And boys are taught from a young age not to cry.

Similarly, children can be "taught" to like the opposite sex, although if their genetic makeup might be deviant and lean more towards playing tonsil hockey with someone their own sex they will eventually wind up doing that later in life (case in point: George Michael and Elton John). When you are taught from a very young age that certain things are "normal", they you will think that they really are ! For example, my chinese friends think its normal to eat rice with chopsticks...me, not so ! :P

Every religious denomination regard marriage as a very important and a sacred union of the two souls, a bond between a man and wife. It?s the existence of man and wife and if this design is altered, the sanctity of this union becomes null and void.
Human beings tend to take advantage of every luxury or bliss that is provided to them and molding such things to suit one person is what makes us human beings. I agree that every person has the right to live their lives as they wish, but what would you say If today same sex marriages/ relationships are accepted, then tomorrow who is to stop two brothers from marrying/ relationship each other? Or a brother marring his sister, and so on?where to draw the line. Anybody can argue that it?s a free country and it?s their right to live as they wish. Ok lets not bring religion in this matter?.but still I feel that
Homosexuality can have a very negative impact on the young. I don?t know about other states but in CA, it?s very disturbing to see and hear that in schools/ colleges there are so many teenagers and a number of adults, calling themselves ?gay? and consider it as a very ?cool? thing even though when they were not. It is wrong to create fatherless or motherless families by design. It is wrong to encourage people to remain trapped in homosexuality. As society rewards homosexual behavior, more young people will be encouraged to experiment with homosexuality, and more will be discouraged from overcoming unnatural homosexual desires. Have you ever thought if ?gay marriage? is legalized, children in schools will be taught that this is the moral equivalent of true marriage and that one day perhaps some might ?marry? a member of their same sex.
My 2 cents?

Fair enough, fairytale... Lost sight of that! Still the abundant enthusiam of some people to banner-wave and slogan-chant about others in order to avoid looking at their own sins and working on themselves has been overwhelming at times.

Zz. Not at all. The media is full of tales of murder (there's nothing they like more than a meaty serial killer story). Strangely, that wouldn't make me worry my son will turn out to be Hannibal Lector. Nobody 'taught' me to be heterosexual. When the blood flows, the blood flows. (Um, not in a murdering way...) I will, first and foremost, teach tolerance over hatred, acceptance over rejection to my children. And I won't "teach" them to be hetero. (I mean, how would you do that anyway? They either are or they're not.)

To Sahadat!

The VE was about homosexuality, that's why it was highlighted and talked about. Simple!

Sahadat, would you feel a bit uneasy if your children are surrounded by media which constantly talks about these so-called sins? Would you feel that your children might be "influenced" by this ? Or would you take time out and try to educate your children about whats right and wrong? Or would you inculcate levels of tolerance about such deviant behavior?

Javed, I don't think anybody here is arguing that it isn't a sin in Islam? At least, I haven't read a single entry saying it isn't a sin? Have I missed something? What I'm ranting on about is people who make a great show about how other people are damned and stay very quiet or wilfully ignorant about their own sins. If you're not homosexual you obviously don't have a problem with this aspect - so why all the noise? Start shouting about your own sins and I might take you seriously...

Homosexuality is a sin. Quran has made it very clear, that Men and women should abstain from any practice of Homosexuality, Homosexuality is prohibited in holy Quran we have the example of the people of Lot.

The following verses will make this clear, God willing.


Lot said to his people, "You commit such an abomination; no one
in the world has done it before! "You practice sex with the men,
instead of the women. Indeed, you are a transgressing people."

"Do you have sex with the males, of all the people? "You forsake
the wives that your Lord has created for you! Indeed, you are
transgressing people."

'major' sins
www.geocities.com

i have a feeling the gravely dangerous/ unforgivable sins firstly consist of the lot the Quran says are unforgivable by Allah, as far as I recall that includes shirk (attributing partners to God) and murder.

In the Qur?an, it is mentioned that Allah does not forgive shirk (without repentance) but He may forgive every other sin for whomsoever He wills.

Lo! Allah pardoneth not that partners should be ascribed unto Him. He pardoneth all save that to whom He will. Whoso ascribeth partners unto Allah hath wandered far astray. .

Also blasphemy/ apostasy:

The only reward of those who make war upon Allah and His messenger and strive after corruption in the land will be that they will be killed or crucified, or have their hands and feet on alternate sides cut off, or will be expelled out of the land. Such will be their degradation in the world, and in the Hereafter theirs will be an awful doom; Save those who repent before ye overpower them. For know that Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

As for those who disbelieve, lo! if all that is in the earth were theirs, and as much again therewith, to ransom them from the doom on the Day of Resurrection, it would not be accepted from them. Theirs will be a painful doom.

If I recall correctly, in Islam, there are some "punishable sins" for which one can repent, and then there are some sins which would throw you out of the Islamic religion window (theoretically ofcourse), thus requiring you to become a Muslim again.

Does anyone know what sins fall in what category ?

you are all on the same boat here , just on different quarters of it.

Sahadat is asking for more understanding and kind behaviour and not us treating them like out-cast animals whose everywish is to sin. So i agree with him that we need to some compassion, care and support them through their life, if they wish to not practise homoesexuality.

What NGE is saying is the direct acceptance or denial of homesexuality in Islam. And Mary i dont really see why churches should be pressureed into marrying gay people, that is changing the platform on which the church is based. How can you expect a men of religion, who might(might) follow the bible to such strict levels, and then u ask him to bless a sin (homesexuality, and it is a sin in all three major religions).

Maybe court marriage is better idea, but forcing religion to change itself for times, i find that strange. Accepting gay lifestyles, marriages etc is diff. to asking religion to open itself to things which are sins in its own eyes. Im not saying the church is perfect or it follows the bible exactly (because then we have to ask which bible it follows), but we have to respect the right of ANY religion to not be forced by society to found itself with such acts as homosexuality.

And finally, sahadat you make good point about the Interest, but surely you can see that sins have different degrees, and you cant use one sin such as interest to contract with homesexuality and than murder (why not then). There is a lesser of evils, and just because we might sin in one thing should not make us "open" to other sins, we need to constantly try to work and better ourselves, and im not saying be a hypocrit , im simply saying......and i agree things are not black and white.

lol ok im tired of yapping.

fantastic link, especially the detail about the women beingh asked to go out on eid (which doesn't always happen in this country if they are stiuck at home cooking while the men attend prayesr).. and the battlefield etc. details

happily the author's conclusion is similar to my feminist one! 'The meeting of men and women is not 'haraam' but is acceptable or required if the objective was participation in a noble cause, related to useful knowledge or good deeds, or a beneficial project or a necessary 'jihaad', or otherwise of the activities that need combining the efforts of the two sexes and cooperation between them'