Sadeya raises a number of interesting points which I thank her for. But I still maintain that a large Muslim law firm is something that our communities need. It is axiomatic that there is strength in numbers. At this point, the small and solo practitioners simply cannot mount a competent defense against the US government in all the post-9/11 terrorism cases. Our boys are getting locked up left and right. The ability of a larger, more profitable firm, with greater connections, greater access to resources and expertise, and let's face it, more money - would enhance our ability to mount such a competent defense. The greater connections provides a platform to do legal work on a level that currently does not exist: why can't we work to provide, say, Islamic financial services to commercial banks? International trade is monopolized by the larger firms today; why can't we Muslims take a piece of that (very large) pie and invest it in our communities? Do we think that non-Muslim firms are going to do it? The point is, the Muslim community is large, wealthy, educated, and poised to make a serious change on the face of American politics and society. With every transaction, every criminal case, every deportation hearing, every investment, there is legal work to be done. Most of this work is currently not being done by us, and that is a loss to our communities. It is absolutely true that a firm must be organized around a goal, or a mission. Who do we expect to accomplish the goal for the Muslim community? Who is best poised to determine what the needs are? Who is best poised to address these issues? The answer is clear: it's US.

ameen

I think the point about being cognizant of varying degrees of muslimness so to speak is great. I think one think that has propelled zionist agenda is the jewish faith's inclusiveness of various types of jews, and their lack of judgement. Most muslims hardly tolerate other musilms from countries other than their own, or different religious factions. Groups fuction through varrying alliances, inclusiveness not exclusiveness (I don't mean exclusiveness in terms of merit here which is essential) but rather looking to groups like the NAACP which takes on rights rather than indivduals. Even those who do not feel they are muslim in a spiritual sense are muslims now a days, just like the secular jews of Germany, you are a muslim if you will be identified as one by the general public, infact a great brunt of this back lash has effected non-muslims like sikhs and hindus.

Hmm is law that exclusionary? I better get used to being left out.

Each of these points has a long discussion built into it; I'm just surfacing the points.

Sadeya, if getting respect were the primary concern, then you're right that we should stick with existing firms. But I think a primary goal of such an institution would be to build things that we cannot get at other firms. // One thing is the ability to move up, which is difficult for any minority but especially so for muslims. // Another thing is to build up our business ties. Given that firm partners are the ones who get any significant exposure to clients, and given that almost all muslims drop away from the partner track, significant business ties never really develop for muslims as they do for those who stay. Why don't we stay? Usually cuz we don't see the opportunities. // Yet another thing is that when a muslim leaves a firm, that person's work and the ties s/he's developed go to others (unless s/he goes to a similarly large law firm, which is seldom if ever the case); whereas at a muslim-concentrated firm, they'd go to other muslims even if the person drops out. // There are numerous other reasons also, but one thing to look into is that some of the biggest firms in the US right now started out all-jewish, precisely because of the reasons I have outlined above and others have suggested below ... but this time, the "excluded" group is our's.

i guess i'd agree with u sadeya in normal circumstances--but i do think that right now, muslims have different and special needs distinct from other populatuions..and they may be turned away/or inadequately represented b/c of lack of information/scant information by other people..also, especially now, we need some public image changes, a reputable firm might help out with our public image..but in the long run i do wannna work for a legal aid society, and if i feel that clients that 'muslim firms' are serving are not necessarily those that are the ones that are greatly underrepresented..i'll opt for working for legal aid..

To clarify what I am saying, an institution follows its mission and goals. I think there is a trap of centering an institution around a group of people. Besides running the risk of isolation and nepotism, not all Muslims are on the same wavelength and not everyone is going to practice faith in the same way, or even be that religious. On the other hand, centering a law firm around a goal attracts like minded people and the organization structure revolves around that mission.

I am only thinking about law school so I don't know all the things that go on. But I don't see why someone would want to set up a "muslim" law firm. I'd rather have respect in my profession because I practice with the best integrity I could and get respect from everyone. What particular reason is there to have a Muslim institution? I know it sounds good, but what do you hope to achieve that you can't in another place? Like if you could be employed by a legal aid society, why would you reinvent the wheel and form a Muslim legal aid society? On the other hand, a common outlook, common goals, and the benefits of networking seem to be good enough reason to form some type of Muslim bar association in your area (They do have one in Chicago).

i am a jd/mba. i'll do it! ...'bout time the sisterz are doin it for themselves - wait, wrong annie lennox song...seriously though, i don't generally volunteer, but this is worth it..anything for my ummah. anything.

And I also agree with effie that something of this sort should include binnis people who have experience in setting up and developing organizations. such a person would add to the marketability of the firm to lawyers working at large firms.

(1) i couldn't agree more. although, i think it would be good to hire a few "others." why? to make sure we're not seen as a conspiracy (in fact, skadden and wachtel both started out this way). (2) question: what do law firms need? clients clients clients. strong clients. i can't emphasize enough the importance of muslims getting into the circles of big binnis playas. seriously. i know i'll be doing binnis stuff, and have been talkin to a couple of muslims about what kinda stuff they're doin, so i can bring clients to them, to build them up. but one thing is that high-level clients pay big bucks for solid/bada$$ legal work. anyone who brings such clients to the firm has to feel comfortable that solid/bada$$ legal work is being provided to these clients, cuz this person's rep would be on the line. (3) relatedly, any "muslim" firm has got to have several lawyers with solid backgrounds, to be able to sell to these clients--lawyers who've worked at the big firms and done good stuff. it's a must. to attract these people, we gotta be able and willing to pay them big bucks. wow lots and lots to this much needed idea ... of a muslim-concentrated law firm. more later. let's propose brief pointers.

I'm at a somewhat large firm and am always hoping to find other Muslims (and actually even just folks of diverse backgrounds) at my and similar-sized firms, so it'd be nice to have Muslim partners some day. I totally concur on HassanMahmad's posting about the difficulties of developing a practice centered on the Muslim community -- unfortunately, it is really hard for alot of our Muslim community (but particularly first generation immigrants) to value a person's time and so you get contacted by folks who have absolutely no respect or appreciation for your time. They'll value tangible products but not professional services, so I quickly learned to my build my practice with a much broader client base.

Hey, I didn't mean it in a non-compassionate way, it just seems that when you can't take care of yourself you can't even being to take care of others, so its not possible to do pro-bono work when you can't pay bills or retain employees. This is why most pro-bono work is done by the largest firms who make the most money and can afford to have several attorneys who do that sort of work. As a caveat, there are great legal serves organizations like Legal Aid, an added pressence in these organizations would also lead to greater help of the community at large. I think helping the new generation break into law, bussiness sense, and coaltion building is what's going to pave the way. There are actually firms that I have seen that actively support a certain group (asian etc) it cannot be done explicitly of course but it can be done.

I agree that oftentimes lawyers have insufficient business sense and that's why their firms fail. A larger firm would need to have someone who knows how it all works. Of course, such a service wouldn't come cheap...I don't know how younger lawyers would be able to pay it. I also agree that there should be something specifically "Muslim" about a Muslim or majority Muslim law firm - treatment of women attorneys would also serve as excellent da'wah - but I'm afraid of falling into the pro bono trap. (don't everybody jump on me yelling shark...) but I think Z_x2 was on point when she said pro bono comes after you have a financially viable enterprise...and legitimacy. To be blunt, you do pro bono when you can afford to. There is no way we could take every deserving case. You have to turn people down. Plus, you have to guard against the freeloaders, and unfortunately, we Muslims are a freeloading bunch, and we love to hook each other up, and that's what causes problems. I'm all for the idea of practicing law with compassion, but we have to remember that there's a fine line between compassionate and pushover.

one way to go to have a good business structure for a law firm--would be to actually hire someone with an MBA that knows how to set up law firms, and have the MBA develop a business plan..and monitor progress. I don't think that us lawyers are as equipped with insight into running a business as someone that might have had actual experience doing it. The other thing i was thinking of suggesting is that there needs to be something specifically 'muslim' about our firm, to call ourselves Muslim--things such as more pro bono work than average, etc. would help us stand out as a good 'muslim' firm. Also, it would be so incredible if we could have a firm that is 'family friendly' in the sense that the firm could provide day care, nursery type resources for attorneys working at the firm--there's alot of attrition among women attorneys b/c many law firms don't offer these types of services, if the firm we're planning to build did, we could tap into a good source of attorneys for our firm--and help retain the women hired as well.

Hassan I totally agree! actually this is the sort of stigma that leads those muslim attorneys who are at the top to dissociate themselves from the muslim community, specifically for the reason of building legitamacy. I understand when people at big firms feel the need to do that but its not a must. I think there needs to be greater professionalism with the general public so there is more respect for muslim attorneys, beyond them being thought of as quacks. As for the charity thing, there needs to be a foucs on pro bono efforts but that comes after one had a financialy viable enterprise, and in this case one that is respected in the greater community at large, in additioin to the musilm community.

I think its agreat cause, not at all a consipiracy but a great way to do something positive. The way big firms work, its all about networking and connections, so why not utilze the connections avaialable. A big part is also mentoring younger attorneys and law studnets, for example I have yet to pin down a good muslim legal bar. The Asian American by for example is a great model, active, well respected and lucrative and also involved in tons of great causes and pro-bono work.

One of the reasons I want to build a large firm is because I'm sick of the way Muslim legal services are seen by the Muslim community. Do any of you feel the stigma of being a second-rate lawyer from other Muslims simply because you're Muslim? In my own practice, this is something I noticed early on, that used to be mildly annoying but is now beginning to seriously piss me off. I used to hear comments like, "Why'd you go hire a Muslim lawyer? You need the best lawyer, you should've hired a Jewish one." Or they'll come into my office saying (and this is a direct quote) "Brother, I saw your ad in *MUSLIM* Link (a local paper)...*wink wink*...so you know why I came to you, right?"...or the guy who complained about "real" lawyers who charged for every phone call or email and that's why he came to see a Pakistani lawyer...then there was another brother who needed a divorce, I told him the retainer would be $750 and hourly thereafter, and he said, "Brother Hassan, I thought you were going to help me." I said, I am, but I'm not running a charity; are you saying my services aren't worth anything to you? To which he said, of course, brother, so, you mean, $7.50? I said, please don't make fun of me. He left my office, and 4 months later, my partner comes back from the courthouse saying, guess who I saw at the courthouse with a brand new sharp Yahoodi lawyer? I dunno...a lot of it is our own fault, and maybe the blame lies completely on us: we operate our firms on the fly, we don't have proper partnership agreements, and most damaging, we don't trust each other...we Muslims are infamous for allowing petty politics to ruin an organization, and a law firm would be no different. Like I was saying, I think that as lawyers we have the ability to provide a much needed service to our communities, and have the potential to show the world how Islam affects our method of practice. We can show there is still honor in the legal profession, but we have to learn how to be legitimate first, and unhappily, that's just not something I see, just yet.

i think thats a great idea--and it can be our chance to experiment with the firm structure..i hate the whole leveraging bit that goes on in firms--there's gotta be a better way!

Well here's a thought for those of you at big firms: Take note and pay special attention to how the firm actually operates. Learn as much as you can (discretely, of course!) about billing practices, how the partners choose associates, and most of all, where and how the big firms score the big clients. What circles do they move in, who do they talk to. Also, perhaps learning about a large firm's history would help us. Did it start off big? Did it grow one or two lawyers at a time? How long did it take?

My point is, there's no reason to reinvent the wheel, and those of us with the ability to find out how it's been done, might have something valuable to offer the rest of us so that one day we can start our own, without screwing it up. WARNING/DISCLAIMER: Any information the big-firm lawyers obtain must be done discretely; I do not want to jeopardize anyone's job. Still, if you keep your ears and eyes open, you can learn a lot about what makes the larger firms tick...that's all I'm saying...