exactly pro . u gotta read my book mate coz u seem to be someone who can think at last. by the way its obvious by soora-e-nasar and other quranic verses at the time of war that prophet himself had to go to war more than 10 times so if he cudnt avoid it how cud we ? jihad is war and there is a basic islamic fundamnetal principal behind it. just sit and think why wud Allah create a religion called islam in the first place ?

they r from ahadith and reference i can provide in 24 hrs so i will. as far as labs suggesting muslims to stand up how can they stand up mate ? they dont have enuff weapons to stand up on. when najamudin arbakan's party won elections in turkey Us intervened and the party with less votes was given the governamament. in algeria when muslims won elections america intervened and a dictator govt was established. rem trinidad's muslim governament ? its not abt democracy or muslims sleeping . its just that they dont have enuff war material to fight the might of US. so they r fighting the way they can. atleast they r putting up a fight in palastine and iraq.

i don't understand HOW anyone can think war is necessary or good ... Islam tells us to fight to defend ourselves/ or land - it's not valid otherwise

jihad does not = war, the only way to 'spread' our religion, if that's what we want to do, is to be good Muslims, and teach by example (in this day that is a laughable notion.. and not likely)

no one could stop the us from invading iraq .. because it is not the un's problem.. the un is made up largely of non muslim countries.. muslim countries should have taken a stand.. but i'm guessing they were too busy feasting on chaat and mangoes/ baklava to care.....

we don't need to 'conquer' anyone, we just need to be left alone, that's achieved by communication, not behading people

cheating in war was invented by the brits?!?! for someone living in the uk, you are pretty anti british, and you've forgotten about the trojan horse/ helen of troy

yeah and rem the days when their leaders were in our pockets ? so y is it all changed today. its simple
alexander the great had military and he cud kill so his nation ruled
egyptians ruled coz they cud do that
muslims ruled coz they conquered every city they cud
whoever will get istanbul for muslims will go straight to heavens prophet of islam suggested
' jews and christians can never be ur friends' al Quran
'keep ur horses and swords prepared to fight in the name of Allah' Al Quran
' I can see muslim horses on oceans and all of them will enter heavens' prophet of islam
wat do u gather from that ?
y cudnt anyone including UN stop US from invading iraq coz US has got the military to support their actions
and no one was buddho they were hospitable but cheating in war was for the first time invented and implemented by brits it didnt use to happen before.
anyways theme is simple
u throw bombs u get bombs
thats wat happened to london
had they let baghdad stay in peace they cud have saved 54 innocent people in london as well

PROM yaar u don't be pointing ur finger at me :P

I have to agree with LABS when she says that if we muslims can't even put 'our own house' in order how the hell do we expect other people to do it for us.

I also agree that if most of the arab dictators/leaders were NOT in the pockets of the US then maybe we muslims would be able to unite and help each other out.

As it is, each to their own.

The ROOT cause to any lack of muslim Ummah is not the west but our own so called arab/muslim leaders. Period.

i was born in pak, thanks ,have lived there as well

slaves of the west is a really derogatory term...

and wrong.. the west aren't thieves who got the money from india.. we gifted it to them..

we were budhoo enough to allow them to come and set up business concerns (east india trading company) and didn't notice / bat an eye when they used it as an excuse to establish themselves in the subcontinent

im sorry but i'm surrounded by at least 5 towns with 5 towns where bnp rioting has taken place in various years.. and i have only EVER heard the english say good things about asians..

there are more asian hooligans in my county than bnp ones... they steal cars to order.. and have been known to kill white ppl who came out of their houses to challenge them.. no english ppl ever said anything to me about it.. and this happened in my town..

i have seen more asian thugs than english ones (even in manchester's wilmslow road on eid/ 14th august) .. ppl of our race make their lives fairly difficult at times.. and the english just go on tolerating us..

everything your saying wouldnt exist if the fat cat pakistani/ syrian/ arab governments gave a damn about muslims.. they don't, so why the hell should white people?

we have no clue how to put our own house in order.. asains are very quick to blame, and never feel they have contributed to anything.. again.. laziness on our part

i ask you, if muslims have a history of allowing the west to come over and colonise / loot us.. why on earth should other nations back us.. we don't ever stand up for ourselves

well labs the problem with the people born outside a muslim country is that few of them r mentally idealogically and up to an extent physically slaves of west and white skin. guess wat where did the money in britian come from ? the theives got the money from india. and by the way a mosque has been burnt on A2 highway and a muslim pakistani has been killed in nottingham ? do they feel sorry ? no they dont . right wing parties and football hooligans have made a pact to forget their rivalries and unite against muslims in britians ? y just coz 4 muslims were idiots ? wat abt 4000 british idiots invading iraq and raping humanity in there ? and muslims didnt create a mess. state of israel in its fundamentalist extremist form is there for 40 damn years now. its like a cat whom u lock in a room with urself the poor animal will look for all the ways to get out and when she wont find any she will attack u. muslims suffered and suffered fought against tanks with stones , kabul was ruined , baghdad destroyed , and plans for attack on damascus and tehran made. when shud they retaliate ? or they shud just sit there and see everythign being destruced by civilized nations' innocent tanks gorgeous artillary and handsome miltiray men ?

cheers fon!

*labs gets high on the peace pipe, hopes it will simultaneously alleviate her cold, and begs fon for the luddoo recipe :P *

*passes the peace pipe to both LABS & DOC...followed by some hot masala chai...with some home made ludoos* :P

docali, you are missing the point

so you don't care what anyone thinks of you, why should you

you don't want to be called a muslim anyway - we are muslims

all this hatred is being perpetrated in OUR names and in our religions name - do the rest of us give a **** that Islam and Muslims are implicated as one entity in this brew of terror and hatred?

do we heck

you miss the point when you say pakistan is badly affected - pakistan's economy has been reported this year as being the second fastest growing one in asia... war suits them.. as long as they can pretend to be chummy with the west they are a-ok, in fact they are flourishing

the west may have helped create binladen - but who swells the numbers of such extremists - why were british suspects able to go for war training in pakistan ? it seems yet again muslims are totally blameless...! we never put a foot wrong... !?

the west are NOT to blame - when you look at how apathetic, greedy, lazy and self-satisfied muslims are with the current state of affairs - not only do we not hold western governments properly accountable for their foreign policies, we ignore the laziness of other middle eastern/ asian/ european muslim governments when bosnia, palestine, kashmir, afghanistan and iraq are in trouble

several people on naseb vibes (who should be grateful they are not residents of new york, london, bali or madrid but are safely tucked away in other cities)... have said so what if 50 people died in london last week. pathetic..

so what?!?!?! it's only another human life.. excuse me if only a handful of them were muslims.. we are more racist than anyone else - we can't even show sorrow at non muslim deaths yet we expect sympathy for our iraqi, palestinian, chechnyan brethren.. it would be laughable (to muslims at least) if it was happening to someone else - but it's happening to us now

muslims helped create this mess as much as anyone else , in some ways MORE SO than others

i find to hard to believe you can say we don't care what 'they' think of 'us' - if they think of us as terrorists, if there are terrorists among us, that's NOT ok, if you live on british or american soil, and earn a living here, if you and your family settled here and were allowed to stay, if after all this you can't be bothered to hold anyone else or yourself accountable for iraq or london, that's the height of ingratitude and the height of laziness

are pakistanis and muslims just ungrateful and lazy - in which case maybe we should stop bothering about appearances:

let's follow your laid back attitude and the attitude of other naseeb contributors, let's just tell everyone 'i have pakistani roots/ or i am a muslim, i may have terrorist tendencies, but hey i'm proud to be true to my culture - because being pakistani, being muslim and being a vile, racist human being are the same thing!'

muslims don't complain quickly enough when atrocities are carried out on muslims 'back home'... is that why we are quick to distance ourselves from people blaming us for the terrorist disease on our own doorstep - because really we only ever speak out about or care about #1 ? is it just our guilt talking ?

difficult to be accepted ? wat r u talkin about ? y shud i care wat they think of me ? did they ever care wat i think of them ? they raped humanity in abu gharib prison did we accuse every brit and american for the acts of their terrorist military ? then who r they to accept or reject me. thats our problem we want them to think of us as good guys but y ? they can think watever they want to.
pro economy of countries like US and UK get better with war coz they dont suffer urban civil casualities as they torture countries miles away from them and rarely get attacked. afghanistan after the war was in a ditch and pakistan now has 5 million afghan reugees as one piece of bread was 1000 rupees right after the war i am tellin the truth coz i had seen that myself.
Pakistan was the biggest economy of asia in 1964 and even south korea sent teams for financial advice from pakistan but one war of 1965 and both india pakistan were ruined. one artillary fire costs $5000 and u do artillary fire all day in war situations.
and i agree with u pro wat abt extremist jews killing bombing arabs for a greater israel for 45 years now wat abt them ? long bearded people with their women in burqa they never get the bad name ? wat abt the okolohoma city bomber who was a cristian fanatic ? did he get a bad name ? wat abt the demolition of babri mosque by hindus ? r we reall still salves or wat ?

thank you omar724, at least someone agrees that muslims put on a better freak show than anyone else (the iran iraq war is an example)..

i think the bombers being of pak british background is hideous.. but it was only a matter of time since we have cr@p pseudo religious groups preaching all over the place encouraging us to 'kill' in the name of our religion..

hopefully the measures tony blair is loooking into introducing to counter home grown terrorism will include lynching these ppl (something we wanted to do when they preached to us at uni, but weren't in a position to do)

thousands and thousands of people did take to the streets in the uk and europe repeatedly to demonstrate against the war, but the govts haven't listened at lest not blair or bush.............. the protestors included not only muslims but sikhs, gay people, english people supporting us and 'our' concern.... blair and bush still got voted back... i think due to the threat they instilled in our minds...

these attacks have set the process back much further.. the madrid/ bali ones (not to mention 9/11), ensure our foreign policies are not likely to change now... these w*nk*rs have ensured the threat is more real than before

i don't think it's helpful to say but muslims are being killed.. look at iraq.. and therefore other attacks are nothing.. WAR does not stop WAR.. the whole frigging thing just starts again 10 years later when the next generation decide to avenge their past..

at this rate these same conflicts will exist 100 years from now.. and all we'll be saying is.. 'but muslims are dying.. so why bother to pity westerners when they get the repercussions'... STOP all fighting, don't look at western lives as cheaper then muslim/ brown ones.. or else get in line with blair and bush because you're being as racist as them

Its a shocker...give bad names to Muslims and Pakistanis on top of that...its already so difficult to be accepted and they made it even worse...pathetic sad people..

STAJ in all honesty it hasn't phased me one single bit....they had to be of some origin or another.....although my hubby who is a paki himself..... was truly gutted to hear that they were pakis too.

SO really how are you all feeling about these pakistani men being the suicide bombers?

Zztop: its sad that they lost that girl in Aruba...I havent followed up much on it but I guess they have given up finding her? Is that true??? There are people missing in this world all the time, not sure why they are publizing this specific person...

Just read the article about the 4 Pakistani sucide bombers who are responsible for the bombings in London..pretty sad. And these stupid terrorits were kids..pathetic. This gives us Pakistani Muslims such bad name...over all a bad name to the Muslims. Hope these rascals pay for their sins....Such selfish people...

theres this case of a birmingham, alabama, USA girl (Natalie Holloway) who has been missing for the past one month (apparently at the island of Aruba )- I cant believe the resources allocated by the US government (FBI, 'Copters, snipers, etc etc.. ) to find one missing local girl who was probably too drunk to be in her senses while partying the night away with 5 guys ..

Give up already, there are other people in serious need in the USA itself!

Muslims were their own worst enemies, long before the Wesern nations were medding in the affairs of Muslim governments and nations, but since Muslims never cleaned up their act, the West has been able to take advantage of this. For God's sake, you have Muslims persecuting and killing Muslims today over trivial matters, and committing acts of humanity against their own Muslim brothers and sisters. This is nothing new, and we all know it. Now of course, this doesn't justify at all at going to war, and killing innocent civilians in Iraq, which we term as "collatoral damage" or in any other country, but it seems that this will continue to be the case in the future and decades to come. Doesn't Allah say in the Qur'an that a condition of a people will not be changed, until their first change their own condition? (the condition of the heart?)

I think those Muslims that do commit these horrible acts today to avenge what is happening in Iraq and Afghanistan, and other countries are just playing into the hands of those that wish to exploit Islam and Muslims, and further their territorial expansion cause into the Muslim dominated regions. This is what will continue to happen, Iran and Syria being next. It's such a huge mess, that I can only forsee this cycle of violence and bloodshed and deception continuing for a long time to come. Yes, there's a lot of deception being played out daily and behind the scenes, but ask your self what is the root cause to these problems? Muslims will never be at peace, not until they are at peace with themselves. Education is key.

i have to agree with SOMEBODY to a certain extent....whenever a 'western' life gets killed its all barbaric, appalling, outrageous and yet hundreds around the globe are dieing due to terrorism (palestine, iraq), bad regimes & dictators (rwanda, zimbabawe) etc and no one really batters an eye lid.