Necessary Evil

Login to find out (September 9, 2005 at 4:56pm)

i'm going to have to delay in terms of replying - though i do think we will probably go round in a circular argument - because you posted an essay khiladi!!!

so pls bear with me

Login to find out (September 9, 2005 at 2:37pm)

It's just no fun without any evil.

Login to find out (September 7, 2005 at 11:16am)

To blame the world's woes on religion in politics is actually a side-tracking of the real issues... abuse of power by men in general as Styx summed up... and it will continue, or may not continue... both choices exist in the realm of historical possibilities...

we ultimately have to look at the destiny of man... the Quran says that "we created death and life to see who among you is best in deeds..." there exists no utopia in this world, and the struggle for goodness and proper living goes on until death, irrespective if rule is established in the name of religion or secularism..

ultimately man has to make the efforts, or he can abuse ideologies for his own selfish interests...

Login to find out (September 7, 2005 at 11:03am)

further, theocracy does not necessarily represent religion.... theocracy represents the age old phenomenon of men in positions of power abusing their power...

the example of democracy as seen in the US today is a clear proof towards this reality... lobbying is what affects the decisions of the government, and ultimately it is those that possess more money that influence the direction in which Congress votes...

the point is that the only way to check this imbalance is to institute proper checks and balances within society, especially in gov't... Umar (R) himself did this when he made the judiciary independent of the rulers in their decisions... he further checked this abuse by forbidding his deputies to separate themselves from the public in standard of living, as well as free access of the public to make their complaints..

the only way a democracy can succeed, whether spiritually based or economically based, is that the people themselves are self-ware and constantly monitor their government, and check their leaders... and the leaders themselves take an attitude of 'serving the people'... otherwise, we see what we see today...

Login to find out (September 7, 2005 at 10:54am)

capitalism is a manifestation of secularism, as much as socialism is... men end up being measured on a purely economic basis...

secularism is an expression of the individual man on a communal level... it is an example of the disintegrated personality...

"the unbeliever is one whom is lost in the horizons,
the believer is one whom the horizons are lost in him.."

politics and regulation of government is just one aspect of 'secular' ideology.... when viewed in this light, secularism is not a western phenomenon but a human phenomenon.. religion in the form of theocracy can be used to further its goals, or a society based upon 'democratic' principles... history is testimony to this...

the point of revelation from the Islamic perspective is that it regulates all the VARIOUS aspects of the human personality in a manner that it achieves harmony to the best extent possible in this world, without imposing on the free-will of the individual...

Login to find out (September 7, 2005 at 10:33am)

thnx Styx

Login to find out (September 7, 2005 at 10:30am)

Saif6 wrote: "I would just like to make a quick point --- it seems like secularism is taking the blame here for capitalism's ills. Non sequitor. The two have nothing to do with each other."

Login to find out (September 7, 2005 at 10:04am)

I can't read Saif's comment... can somebody post it

Login to find out (September 6, 2005 at 11:31pm)

Saif6 - excellent and important distinction.

Login to find out (September 6, 2005 at 10:40pm)

I would just like to make a quick point --- it seems like secularism is taking the blame here for capitalism's ills. Non sequitor. The two have nothing to do with each other.

Login to find out (September 6, 2005 at 4:20pm)

"Yes Indian... we will let you dance around the fire, and call for rain... in fact, we will watch you and clap to the dance... but as soon as your religion teaches you that you possess dignity and the right to a better living, than we will not clap... but we will fight you with our guns..."

"Yes Muslims... we will watch you dance in circles in commemoration of Rumi... we will let you count your dhikr beads endlessly... we will listen to you recite your poems... but when we hear the poets start chanting the call of "do not oppress, and do not be oppressed" than we will fight you.."

Login to find out (September 6, 2005 at 4:16pm)

secularism has done more to destroy culture than any force, including religion... why does one think the Samurai resisted, the Shaolin monks resisted, the North American Indians resisted... and so on and so forth.. what really is left of the North American Indian settlements other than gambling, alcoholism, and huge poverty..

is that religion to blame???

Login to find out (September 6, 2005 at 4:10pm)

"to take up your points styx, i would like it if people minded their own business. ie, i would prefer religion to become a personal salvation or way of life that is left to the individual."

the problem is people don't mind their own business, including those that do not have religion... when secular countries invade third world countries, it is not because of religion... it is to maintain their lifestyle irrespective of the lifestyle of other people...

Login to find out (September 6, 2005 at 4:07pm)

to equate these problems to Wahhaabism is patently absurd... it is a superficial analysis and is simple rhetoric taken from traditionalists, now being perpeutated by the media... and Muslims are buying into the nonsense..

Login to find out (September 6, 2005 at 4:06pm)

I mean if we actually trace the degradation of Muslim society honestly, we can trace it to outside influences... tyranny, exploitation, monopolization, oppression of women, the idea that women belonged in the homes...

Login to find out (September 6, 2005 at 4:04pm)

I mean really... what do people fear when somebody calls for a return to the Quran and sunnah, and not the form of Islam as practiced by traditionalism.. one which is full of Islam mixed with Persian-Roman and other cultural ideas...

Login to find out (September 6, 2005 at 4:02pm)

further, Baba... I believe that lowering the gaze is used idiomatically for conducting one's self in a modest way... and that the command is given to MEN FIRST in the Quran.. so in actuality, the verse is not about protecting women from the gaze of lustly males, but directed primarily to the psychological attitude of the individual himself..

but yeah, I'm sure you consider the root cause of the failure of the Muslim world as one of wahhaabism..

Login to find out (September 6, 2005 at 4:00pm)

I mean, considering that more people died in the last century than the rest of MANKIND'S history, I find it rather ironic that people would blame religion for it...

I find it rather ironic that people blame the sociological problems of the Muslim world as because of a spearation of Chruch and State, and not one that is the result of many different factors, among them this outside cultural influence of these secular countries...
I mean really... who is supporting these dictators in the Muslim world and in reality maintaining the status quo... whose interests is it that Muslim countries continue to blame their problems on the madrassahs, when it is the elite that possess more than 90 percent of the wealth within their countries...

who really is to blame for the lack of social development with these countries? The Mullahs, Taliban...

Login to find out (September 6, 2005 at 3:54pm)

the fact that women were activitely involved in the JUMUAJ prayer, which in its original form, practiced by the rightly-guided Khaleephas, was an interface between the ruler and the ruled... it was here that the rulers were held accountable and this delicate balance was maintained... it was here that women openly proclaimed their opinions, and it was the elderly woman who told Umar (R) that his desire to reduce the mehr because he viewed the practice of giving higher mehr's becoming common was not morally right was baseless and that he had no right Islamically to do that... because of this Umar (R) agreed..

it was only because of the outside cultural influences that this gradually changed into aristocracy

Login to find out (September 6, 2005 at 3:51pm)

further, the PURDAH was adopted from these OUTSIDE cultures...

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