Ray,

Thanks for the valuable feedback. You are very right there is a significant different between healthy weight trainers and mice :) That's why I think we should take these studies only as references rather than definitive "end all be all" answers.

About supplementing with L-Arginine I actually did that and did notice incredible results. I think I might try it again.

I don't know what it is about Supercharge/NO-Xplode but the stuff works! It could be the right combination of Creatines or perhaps the Creatine is what's working. I know the mad energy comes from all the caffeine but I don't get pumps like that from a cup of coffee lol. Either way, I highly recommend the stuff. I'm actually thinking of making my own similar cocktail by mixing the ingredients myself as well as some other stuff that I've learned of after some research. At least its cheaper.

I agree with Aragorn--try NO-Xplode and you will forget about NO2....

Hey Rayflexx... thanks for your inputs... NO2 or NO-Xplode.. which one will you recommend?

Plus dont forget that many of the AKG studies use high doses--and NO2 for example only has 1.5 g AKG per serving--some studies use 10 times that dose...

Try 7-10 grams of L-Arginine about 45 minutes before training--All I can say is Holy Muscle Pump Batman!!

Actually the study I am referring to was conducted last year at Baylor University and was with the NO2 product itself. This was a direct study in training athletes taking NO2--not a leap of faith or a conclusion based on indirect evidence. And yes I agree, we have to be careful with research-we really must look at the full text studies, not only abstracts--I think looking at supplementing untrained burn victims and healthy weight trainers is two completely different things and metabolic/hormonal environments vary. and we have to be very careful with animal research...

I am well aware of the AKG studies but I challenge you to find one study in healthy, training individuals that shows that AKG not OKG or AAKG increases NO production and enhances lean body mass at a reasonable/realistic dose...Plus the study you reference below used 20 g/day of OKG (not AKG alone)--this is a very high cost ineffective dose--I can show you dozens of studies that show many benefits of L-Arginine supplementation and L-ornithine supplementation--many in healthy, training individuals.

The wide array of studies you mention in the 80's and 90's on AkG are mostly on post-operative patients.

I have stuck with the pure L-arginine (along with glutamine) for years and it has worked great for me..

Ray, the study you're referring to wherein no improvement in Nitrogen balance was observed was "Alpha-ketoglutarate-supplemented enteral nutrition: effects on postoperative nitrogen balance and muscle catabolism" from Huddinge University Hospital in 2002. The -reason- for the lack of any observable effect was due to the restrictive tolerance to enteral (intestinal) feeding as stated in the abstract. These findings actually contradict earlier studies from 1997 and 1999 wherein enterally administered AKG yielded positive results (see "Modulation of immune response with ornithine A-ketoglutarate in burn injury: an arginine or glutamine dependency?" and "Ornithine alpha-ketoglutarate modulates tissue protein metabolism in burn-injured rats").

Now, specifically regarding the effects of AKG/OKG in improving Nitrogen balance directly relating to body mass a study was conducted in 1999 "Nutritional and clinical efficacy of ornithine alpha-ketoglutarate in severe burn patients". The abstract states:

"60 patients who had undergone severe burns (20-60% of body surface area) received either ornithine alpha-ketoglutarate (20 g/day) or an isocaloric placebo, for 21 days, starting mean 4 days after injury. In the OKG group, nitrogen balance reached positive values at d5 and stabilized at higher levels vs controls (P< 0.05 or less from day 3 to day 21), resulting in a strongly positive cumulated nitrogen balance at day 21 (mean +/- SEM, OKG group: +127 +/- 13; Control group: -63 +/- 18g nitrogen). As measured at day 21, transthyretin and RBP levels were higher in the OKG group (respectively 259 +/- 9 vs 161 +/- 10, and 45 +/- 1 vs 33 +/- 1 mg/l, P< 0.001). Body weight loss was counteracted at d21 in the OKG group (-2.6% vs -6.3%, P< 0.001)."

There are a wide range of studies substantiating the positive effects of AKG on limiting catabolysis in skeletal muscle ranging from the 80's and 90's. There are a handful since 2000 and I think only one declared a lack of results for the reasons I mentioned.

Scientific studies should be utilized with care as they are never intended to be definitive proofs individually or even, at times, accumulatively. They just give a general idea from which professionals can deduce a conclusion.

Pure L-Arginine at gram doses (7 grams twice daily) is the way to go fo NO production. NO2 is arginine Alpha-ketoglutarate (which is an old product that Twinlab had years ago) --but my pal Ed Byrd who is a marketing genius repackaged it and came up with a 'magical' delivery system. NO2 is only 50% arginine..AKG may have some glutamine sparing effects but I have never seen any studies to suggest that it enhances NO production. In fact, some of my friends/colleagues did the research study on the NO2 product and it showed No effect on lean muscle mass or body fat-all they showed was some slight increase in bench press strength which was not that big..Plus NO2 is not cost effective and is way overpriced...my $.02.

Umair, yeah I was just cracking a joke. IGF-1 LR3 is not a practical solution for the average amateur bodybuilder. If you don't do it right then it'll do nothing at all for you and that's a precious chunk of change to flush in the toilet. Also, people get wimpy and don't want to spot inject so they keep shooting it subcutaneous in the abdomen. The problem with that is that the intestines have the largest number of IGF-1 receptors so guess where the first place it binds is? You end up with "growth gut" which can be quite unsightly.

Use NO-Xplode by BSN or Supercharge by Labrada. You'll change your mind about NO2.

Also, supplementing plain Arginine is not the same thing. Its like saying Monosodium Glutamate (MSG) and Glutamine have equal muscle building effects lol ;) The synergistic effect of NO2 won't be the same as taking Arginine by itself, though taking Arginine by itself did do amazing things for me. That's typically because of its effect on IGF1 levels.

In the end you can eliminate the middle man and spot inject IGF-1 LR3 post workout if you wanna be a maniac and love needles lol.