that time ummah would have divided if Ali took out his sword, but this time it was his personal matter, his wifes matter not ummahs matter, if people violated the command of god and selected someone else as per their choice Ali didnt took out sword as he didnot want ummah to be divided, this worldly khilafa was not important but non division of ummah, and peoples khilafa came to his shoes finally

so further, if Ali (R) took out his sword about the burial of Fatima (R), why didn't he take out the sword when he claimed they usurped his God-given right to be the khaleepha? are you saying the will of Fatima (R) was more worthy to draw the sword than the command of God, according to shia belief?

well actually, according to your shia sources:

"Imam Ali (A.S.), as per her last will, bathed her and gave her the coffin and buried her in the darkness of the night. Her grave was kept secret and still it is not known and is hidden. So nobody could know where she was buried. Because, the political figures of that period were bent upon opening her grave apart and offer the death prayers again. A negative combat about her grave is going on from that time to the day and from now onwards for the future days to come."


"Meanwhile, Ali (A) made the shapes of four fresh graves in Baqi' so as to conceal the location where Fatima was buried. When the people entered the graveyard, they were confused as to which spot was actually Lady Fatima Zahra's grave"

it was jannat-ul-baqi not an unknown location and these 2 men visited when Ali(as) was there after burial

but Khanaseeb.. according to your shia sources, Ali and these few buried Fatima (R) in an unknown location... how can your story be true?????

as per her wasiya/will , she was buried without the attendance of umar and abu bakar, when these 2 men came after her burial and asked ali(as) they want to rebury her then Ali(as) took out his sword and said dont ever dare and these 2 men had no choice but to go back.

1. So basically, accordingto your sources, Medina was wailing with the sound of men and women when they heard about the death of Fatima (R), YET those sixe or seven Companions happened to take the body of Fatima (A) secretly during the middle of the night, while ALL OF MEDINA WOULD HAVE OBVIOUSLY COME TO CONTINUALLY PAY THEIR RESPECTS TO ALI (R)?

Maybe al-islam is suffering from a clear case of amnesia?

2. Actually, the Quran explicitly calls the Companions "the MIDDLE NATION", i.e. the serve as the transmitters of the message of Islam between the Prophet and mankind.... God himself put the Companions (R) through a series of trials to cleanse them, and expose the hypocrites for this express purpose...

thus, there is nothing that unravels my belief...

Why dont you come to terms with the fact that there certainly was enmity between the families of Abu Bakr and Ali bin Abu Talib. There was grave enmity. We accept it, why cant you? What about it unravels every fiber of your belief?

Can you please inform us how many wives Abu Bakr (R) had to make it inconsequential? Abu Bakr (R) had a total of four children, all born in Jahilliya...

Further, it is very relevant, considering the shia claim is that Fatima tried to hide the burial of Abu Bakr (R)....

Maybe this should tell you that there really wasn't any enmity between Abu Bakr (R) and Ali's (R) family..

Which is why i think shia accusations against sahaba are incoherent...

It is inconsequential that a lady who was one of several o f Abu Bakrs wives was there to attend to the health of Lady Fatima despite her enmity with Abu Bakr. After all the Prophet was wed to his daughter. And Abu Bakr's own son Muhammad bin Abu Bakr was raised by Imam Ali and was among his Shia. Muhammad went on to become one of the forefathers of the Imams.

Asif: do you remember why i stopped debating with you? It was for the exact same reason that khiladi stated:

" further, you still don't seem to understand the argument..."

You never understood the argument and you obviously still don't.

SO WHAT IF THEY PURSUE A DIFFERENT AVENUE... the books that you claim you have searched 'far and wide' for are based upon the INTERNET... I am sure the extent of your search was al-ansar.org...

further, notice that 'my claim' that it is not saheeh is absurd... I stated that a PORTION OF THE NARRATION IS HADEETH, the REST IS STATEMENTS OF THE NARRATOR, i.e. Az-Zuhri... Az-Zuhri is not a Prophet, that he qualifies his statements becoming hadeeth.

I gave you Bukhari himself, along with other's which clearly show Az-Zuhri was known for idraj. Further, here is another referencse:

In a letter to Imam Malik, Imam Layth Ibn Sa?ad writes:

When we would meet Ibn Shihab, there would arise a difference of opinion in many issues. When any one of us would ask him in writing about some issue, he, in spite of being so learned, would give three very different answers, and he would not even be aware of what he had already said. It is because of this that I have left him ? something which you did not like. (Ibn Qayyim, I?lamu?l Muwaqqi?in, vol. 3, , p. 85)

NOTICE THAT HERE IS THE TWO PERSONALITIES IMAM MALIK AND IMAM LAY'TH, discussing the personality of Az_zuhri... two of the greatest sunni scholars EVER...

further, just to let you know, Imam Tabrasim, the SHIA, in his response to certain hadeeth about the compilation of the Quran that are ion Bukhari, and HAVE THE PERSONALITY OF AZ-ZUHRI SAYS,

"Sayyid Murtada is also of the opinion that those among the Imamiyyah and the Hashawiyyah sects who have differed from this view are of no significance because the ones who have differed are from among the Ahli Hadith and have based their THEIR VIEW ON WEAK AHADITH CONSIDERING THEM TO BE CORRECT. Consequently, on the basis of such weak Ahadith, a proven and a certain reality cannot be rejected. (Tabrasi, Majma?atu?l-Bayan, vol.1, , pp. 15-16) "

1. "nice how you accuse me of not knowing my own sources because you can't provide the references. i kow you just copied them from another article and haven't seen them yourself. so those arguments are not acceptable either. it is irrelevant anyway whether i know these texts, im not the one quoting them, you are."

Actually, I know you have no knowledge of your own sources. This is why you refuse to directly answer the quotations of these hadeeth.

2. "again your incomprehension of logic shows, no one said abu bakr forbade his wife to leave the house, it was syedda fatimah (a.s) who was angry with abu bakr according to many SAHIH hadith. abu bakr, in fact, regretted his action eventually, and fatimah (a.s) had not wronged him in any way for him to have any grounds to be angry with her anyway."

fatima (R) is alleged to have DESIRED TO BURY HERSELF AT NIGHT ACCORDING TO SHIA, BECAUSE SHE DID NOT WANT HER ENEMIES TO JOIN HE FUNERAL PRAYER...


This is precisely why al-islam says:

"They were Ali, Hassan, Hussain, Zainab and Um Kulthum... Abu Dhar, Ammar, Miqdad, and Salman were following them.

Where are the thousands who inhabited Medina?! One asks, and the answer came: Fatima (A) requested that they may not be present at her funeral!!"

HOW STRANGE THAT FATIMA (R) DID NOT INCLUDE THE VERY WOMAN THAT NURSED HER... ASMA (R)...

One can only wonder at the caontardiction, when al-islam.org says:

"History shows that Abu Bakr himself and his whole family (EXCEPTING ASMA AND HER SON MUHAMMAD) were hostile to the Prophet's family, in utter disregard to what the Quran ordained or what the Prophet had said relating to the respect and love for his family. The following is the list of those whose hostility was Distinctively marked."

Answer this question... if this was the motivation for Fatima to be buried at night according to Abu Muhammad Ordoni? Than why was the wife of Abu Bakr thoroughly acclimated with it according to Mullah Baqir?

Simple question...

Like I stated before, Bukhari and Muslim do not narrate this hadeeth multiple times. Bukhari quotes it once.

And many times, when they do quote multiple narrations, on more acute observation, one realizes it is a different versions of the SAME NARRATION. All the narrations end in a common narrator.

Asif_Ali... all you have done is MADE ASSUMPTIONS... you keep writing long posts that are simply accusations, not sticking to the evidence.. the reason you have done this is because YOU DO NOT HAVE ACCESS TO YOUR OWN WORKS...

further, you still don't seem to understand the argument...

1. The evidence that Abu Bakr's wife (R) was nursing Fatima (R) clearly proves that the claim that Fatima bore a brudge with Abu Bakr (R) until her death is absurd. Further, it get's even more absurd to argue that that Fatina (R) tried hiding the news of her burial from Abu Bakr (R), while Abu Bakr's (R) wife was involved in the washing of the body. Are you saying that Abu Bakr's(R) wife continually left the house of Abu Bakr (R)for weeks while he was totally unaware?

No side-stepping the issue please... I want a simple answer from you...

No matter if you try and bring up Asiya (R), or any other pious wife of a tyrant can change this matter. These are nothing but side-steps, attempts to grab at straws..

EVEN WHEN A HUSBAND IS NOT NICE, ACCORDING TO ISLAMIC TEACHINGS, SHE CANNOT ENTER AND EXIT THE HOUSE CONTINUALLY WITHOUT THE PERMISSION OF HER HUSBAND. Further, CONSIDERING THAT THIS COULD BRING ACCUSATIONS OF HER LACK OF MODESTY, ESPECIALLY IN THAT TIME AND STANDING, NO PIOUS WOMAN WOULD DO SUCH A THING.

NOR WOULD FATIMA (R) EVER APPROVE... are you willing to stain Fatima (R) to prove your groundless point? are you saying Fatima (R) encouraged Asma to disobey her husband and sneak out secretly? Are you saying Fatima did not mind Asma lying to Abu Bakr? Are you saying Abu Bakr was totally clueless about his wife leaving the house continually for weeks?

wow....

2. The hadeeth is:

"Abu Bakr said to her, "Allah's Apostle said, 'Our property will not be inherited, whatever we (i.e. prophets) leave is Sadaqa (to be used for charity)."

The rest is INSERTION BY THE NARRATOR. And the one who did the insertion is Az-Zuhri.

Zuhri used to explain various Ahadith a lot and many a time he would not mention the particle from which would be known whether the words were from the Prophet (sws) or from Zuhri. So some of his contemporaries would always ask him to separate his words from those of the Prophet (sws). (Sakhawi, Fathu?l-Mughis, vol. 1, , p. 267-8)

Rabi?ah would say to Ibn Shihab: My situation is totally different from you. Whatever I say, I say it from my own self and you say it on the authority of the Prophet (sws) and so you must be careful, and it is not befitting for a person to waste himself . (Bukhari, Tacrikhu?l-Kabir, vol. 3, , pp. 286-7)

Ibn Rajab records the following opinion of Imam Bukhari:

Zuhri would narrate Ahadith and on most occasions would insert sentences from his own self. Some of these would be Mursal and some of them would be his own. (Ibn Rajab, Fathu?l-Bari, 1st ed., vol. 5, , p. 286)

Notice that even according to ibn Rajab, BUKHARI acknowledges that Az-Zuhri, whom he has taken the hadeeth, performs mudraj.

3. Is there any evidence that Fatima (R) spoke to Abu Dharr (R), Ammaar (R), or any other Sahabah (R)? DO YOU ACCUSE FATIMA (r), THE DAUGHTER OF THE PROPHET (S) OF SPEAKING TO MEN THAT WERE NOT HER MAHRAM? Especially considering that both shias and sunnis acknowledge that she CONFINED HERSELF TO HER HOME MOST OF THE TIME, AND ESPECIALLY AFTER THE DEATH OF HER NOBLE FATHER....

"It is not wondrous that whoever smells the fragrance of Muhammad's tomb will never smell another perfume. Destiny hurt me with bereavement. So sad, and so dark, that if it had fallen on the days they would have been turned into eternal nights".

4. "as for your references, i seriousely doubt you read them, looks like a copy job you read from a propoganda article."

Is this the amount of your refutation? You wrote hundreds of words, with only this to say?

This means that you yourself have NO ACCESS TO THE SOURCES... THUS, YOUR WHOLE ARGUMENT RESTS ON ASSUMPTIONS... As I stated before, you can ask your imam, and I am sure he will bring the books before you... Ask him who was nursing Fatima (R) ate her death... it's a simple question.

5. Further, YES THEY ARE BOOKS... They are books by Mullah Baqir, ibn Kathir, Bayhaiqi, and so on...

That is why Mullah Baqir in Jala-ul-Uyoon, quotes Kashful Ghumma, which I am sure you have heard many times:

When the end of Fatima (R) came near, she asked ASMA BINT OMAIS (R) "Bring some water, I shall have ablution." After it, as recorded in another tradition, she took a bath and applied scent and put on new clothes, and said, "O Asma, Gibrail had brought forty darham of camphor of Paradise, at the time of the death of my revered father. the Prophet (S) had divided it, into three parts, keeping one part for himself, the other for Ali (R) and the third for me. bring that camphor to embalm me."

When Asma brought the camphor, she told hr, "Keep it at the hdead of my bed". After it, she extended her legs towards Qibla, and rested, wrapped in a sheet of cloth, and told, "Asma call me after some time. If I do not respond, call for Ali (R) and learn that I have met my father." Asma (R) waited for some time and called her. She did not receive any reply."

SO NOW ARE YOU GOING TO SAY THIS IS INACCURATELY QUOTING MULLAH BAQIR? Or are you going to try and continually grab at straws?

6. "these are not books for starters. and what edition of amaali are you talking of, if you give a page you have to give the edition of the book, because prints differ."

Than the edition and page number are irrelevant, because you would have a different edition.

7. "honestly you can continue to argue in the face of obviouse facts, but unless you can bring sometihng new i think this debate is closed."

The debate was never open... I do not expect you to bring anything new, simply because these are facts... if you cannot deal with them, than that is your issue...

Very informative, Asif. One can't help but notice the logical and coherent manner in which you make your arguments as opposed to the belligerant rantings of Silkypanties.

Actually, of the few references that I read in the original Arabic, they are legit.

sure, we can always bring fake and fabricated references, just put au hurairas name, and it will be always sahih never galat, silky is also abu huraira of this century , expert in fabricating hadith

Plenty of things have been fabricated, saying they are from shia books, you just have to look at some of Silkyswords comments. If you can provide a reference where we can see the quote in context, then only can they be used to support an argument."

In all fairness to SilkySword, he does provide his references... I do not agree with his approach, and many of his conclusions, but there is one thing you cannot accuse him of, and that is that he does not bring references..