J- No need to appologise.
No two people ever agree on most things but this does not mean that opinions that differ from yours are incorrect.

Through time there have been many fables & stories that lead us to a higher level of understanding of our creation & maker.

these may not always be in the hadith or fact fueled dossiers but they remain in the ages & have been carried down & retold by many generations..

these are fables.. with a deeper emaning aiming to provide a better understanding sometimes in laymans terms, somtimes in a deep hidden meaning..

The tales of Shcerzade are not in the Quran, nor is Tipu Sultan but did he not tell the tale of the Pirate who fed a pool of fish every day & it was them that asked the lord to pardon him. This is still an islamic based fable but as far as I know not in the Quran.
This does not mean its meaning is not a strong one.

These fables have been there since time began & they shall always remain..

Malish sorry if you got that impression I did not at any point intend to insinuate that you are incorrect because your views are different. You claimed that the story was an actual hadith ... which I am skeptical of ... and so I asked for an actual reference. There is nothing prejudiced or dogmatic in me asking you for supporting evidence to your claim. My question had nothing to do with your free will or interpretation ... the story either is a hadith OR it is not ... your interpretation/views do not come into this question.

baba & J.

hmm.. I see that you two may have gone on a defensive one.
This is quite a typical reaction though unfortunately..

if someone does not happen to hold with your idea of what should be right wrong read or interpreted does by no means insinuate they are incorrect.

Its called free will & personal interpretation & understanding.

Sorry if I missed this before, but what was Hafsa bint Umar's role in the original compilation?

"Baba- you are very coreect ins aying that we as mulims received our quran from god & the gospel is from man.."

I did not say that, Malish-mektoub.

You are reading into my statements what you want to see.

Is this fable from a hadith? I certainly dont think it is ... please correct me if I am wrong (i.e., a proper reference).

J- There are guildelines & specific ways set out yes However how can you determine what is accepted or not..

If theses fables & stories are in the hadith who are we to argue..

Malish-mektoub -- that's a nice story ... sort of along the lines of the hadith about the prostitute who went to heaven because she once gave a thirsty dog a drink of water out of her shoe. However, your story certainly sounds like it has some sufistic ingredients to it. At the same time I'm not sure what Imam Ghazali's own position would have been in such a situation.

I am a little reserved about the overall message, though. Please dont get me wrong ... I completely agree with "It is what is within his heart that Our Lord sees". But if God Himself describes a way to pray to him, isnt it more in the spirit of humble worship and servitude to pray that way? Its not an issue of "correctness" but rather about "ihsan". Its about relinquishing your own notions of how to do it in favor of how God says to do it. Comments?

i thankyou mystic.. x

Malish-mektoub - i love that story. thank you! your last sentence was beautiful:
It is what is within his heart that Our Lord sees
thank you!

I agree with Mali "Try and understand the message"

There are many fables on how ones prayers are heard.
What one may see as 'proper' may not be another's but this by no means insinuates that his prayers are not heard..

Every man differs in their understanding & interpretation of the lord. This does not mean he is incorrect, the fact that he has tried to understand is a show of what he feels..

I once heard a story of a sailor..

He was passing through a city to get to his ship after doing trade.. on route he saw a man run to the top of a mountain then roll all the ay down again then repeat this over & over..
The sailor was confused & asked his vizier is this ma insane why does he do this ritual. The vizier went to the man & asked. My sire asks why you do this ritual as we have been watching you for some time. The man replied I am praying to my lord.

The vizier relayed this message to the sailor who took it upon himself to teach & advise the man of the correct way to offer salat. patiently he taught the man how to read namaaz & offer prayers. The man was confused but happy that he now knew the 'correct' way to pray to his creator..
They said their farewells & the man thanked the sailor.
The sailor departed for the port & boarded his ship & set out to sea.

A few hours later the vizier called to the sailor "sire sire I think you should see something" The man was running to him shouting for him to stop. When he reached the ship out of breath & panting he asked the sailor Im sorry I seem to have forgotten one paragraph can you please tell me one more time..

On seeing this the sailor asked the man for forgiveness & said im sorry I had no right to say how you called upon The Lord was wrong, you run across water & have no essence of pain or the impossible. This truly is a gift from The Lord..

Go back to your mountain & pray how you choose. I am not the receiver & I was wrong to assume because your way & mine differs my prayers are heard & yours are not. For neither can I feel no pain Neither can I run across land & water.
I am an ignorant man & you have made me see that the lord accepts whom sees & loves him in whichever way he knows of in whatever language he knows of.

Return to your mountain with blessings of me & my people.. & with this the man once again ran across the seas & returned to his mountain & ran to the top & rolled to the bottom with a smile upon his lips..

How we interrepet out maker is not the basis.. it is WHAT WE OFFER WITHW HAT WE KNOW little or magnamous makes for no more than anyone else. In the eyes of our Lord we are equal.

A illiterate mans prayers are no stranger than that of a scholar. It is what is within his heart that Our Lord sees

No problem Malithegreat.

You don't need to read all of the comments before making a comment at all. It would be nice if you did.

What is very important is that you read the journal topic fully and understand it comprehensively.

You will see that the topic addresses the issue of Quranic transmission and not Quranic content.

So, don't worry, the ummah isn't going to fall apart.

again, my two cents: (by the end of this i may be broke)

there are some who say that mystic's arguments about human error in the actual writing are valid, and in order to counter that argument espouse the belief that the Prophet was created as a being who was free from making such human errors... not that he didn't have free will like the angels, but that in the role he had to fulfill as the Seal of the Prophets, it was necessary and Just for God to give the prophet this attribute... so if he were overseeing the transcription of the Quran, then he would not overlook any human errors made by those scribes.. and so the written copy would be free from any flaws..

I agree with Mali.... We have to remember that God chose to send his message in this language and in this manner. He knows best. Our job is to try and understand it to the best of our abilities. There is no reason to question why this language was used. Other human languages have been used for the Torah and the Bible. Just read the Quran and learn about the religion and be better Muslims and persons.

And my apologies again for any offense to anyone.
It was not my objective to sound harsh.
I just think we need to do our homework.

Also, I believe discussion and being open-minded are necessary if any of us is to reach an understanding of things. Just please, don't forget to do your homework. Look at the sources themselves. Read the Qur'an itself, understand the history of the Prophet P.B.U.H. Do not simply take these as mere metaphors that cannot be understood. Try and understand the message.

Assalam alaikum

I haven't had a chance to read all of these comments.
My fear was simply that instead of reading up about these questions in a meaningful way, we would instead get caught in a discussion that has less to do with the Qur'an or the Almighty and more to do with our own limitations of knowledge, whoever we may be.

One of the miracles that the Qur'an itself declares is that no human being can recreate it. The Qur'an is meant to be a revelation for human beings, so it is in a language that can be understood by human beings. Allah Himself says that we can never sum up His Greatness in human language, but the Qur'an is meant as a guidance and glad tidings for those who believe - these are words meant for us as human beings, to lead us. And if it comes from the Divine, which we as Muslims believe it does, comes through a process of revelation where the words are conveyed to a Prophet who then conveys them to his people AS he heard them (without substituting his own words), are preserved and then handed down to us, we are meant to believe in them as Divine revelation to us.

I suggest you read up on these questions and issues. But please bear in mind that the Qur'an is meant to be a message from the Divine to human beings. That is what the Qur'an itself describes itself as, that is what the Prophet and all who accepted this message described the Qur'an as.

The rest of you can believe what you wish. I am sorry but I can't read through all of these just yet. But I think we should all actually look at the sources instead of merely expounding on what we may think may be right.

I hope some of you are actually reading the Qur'an. If Allah meant to convey a message to us, then He conveyed it. If He Himself says He conveyed it, then we cannot take that and think His words must have meant something entirely different. Yes, there are depths and heights to these words, the beauty and depth of the message is immense. Not everyone can understand everything. We are human. I agree.

But this discussion seems merely like its turning into a way of not even looking at the Qur'an itself as revelation or anything we ougth to bother with beyond superficial niceties. The Qur'an itself says that is a clear message, revealed in a clear language. It itself makes that statement. It is not meant to be an exercise in conjecture.

By all means, ask your questions with an open mind. All of us should. But try and look at the sources themselves.
Some things are MEANT to be clear.

May we all come closer to understanding the Truth ameen.

If I have offended anyone, my apologies.
If my lack of knowledge in any area, my own bias, my own inability to see reason or logic, my confusion, my own "agenda" have muddled my thinking or allowed me to express ideas about something FAR greater than myself, I can only ask forgiveness from Allah and from the rest of you.

Please. Go find some real information. Go read the Qur'an. There is a RICH legacy of information and knowledge that awaits all of us. We cannot get to it by merely conjecturing at how the Divine could not possibly communicate with us.

Assalam alaikum

No, there is always a chance for errors. That is the nature of creation.

Jahangir27 wrote:

"(4) Therefore we can now claim that Gabriel reads the lauh-e-mahfuz exactly the way Allah tells him to ... the likelihood of error in his reading is the same as the likelihood of me jumping in the air and staying afloat because gravity randomly failed. The same argument applies to Gabriel's delivery to the Prophet. Thus your objections against the second and third link in the chain are refuted also. The only link that remains is from the Prophet to the companions, which I already pointed out is the only weak link in the chain. QED. Was Salaam"

I am sorry to upset you.

I blame it on my inability to read your true ideas behind the text of your comments.

The real question here is not as much as how well Archangel Gabriel performs, rather, how well he can contain the Message of God. Even an Archangels cup do runneth over my friend.

Even in using a scientific analogy, that you are so fond of, I can show you that electrical voltage steadily decreases the further along the cable you travel even though the equipment and supply of electricity remains the same according to their own design specifications.

Allah does not make anything faulty. It's just that creation has limits inherent in its' own design. Each part of creation is like a reflection, in varying degrees, to the reality of God. All reflections cannot show you the complete true real image, just like all that which is created cannot show you the true real image of God.

So, the Quran as something that was created by God cannot show you ever the true real words of God.


Jahangir27 wrote:

"(3) Now comes the issue of Angel Gabriel, who is not human and is not jinn. Which means he has no free will. An angel in this regard is an entity which Allah has created so that it will obediently perform assigned tasks (dont think of obedience here as humans obey, but think of it as how electrons and protons obey the tasks Allah has ordained for them ... they obey flawlessly). Because the angel has no will of its own, any inability in flawlessly performing its task would be the doing of Allah the Creator himself ... because the angel behaves exactly the way Allah makes him. But because Allah himself is perfect, it is not possible that he made an angel that was faulty."

I dont have time to read all the comments and repsond right now .. i'll get back to that later. For now I just want to say one thing to you Babaganoush:

" Drop your ego as it is clouding your understanding of reality"

You have displayed a debate ethic similar to many other people here on naseeb. Please direct your criticisms and refutations upon my arguments and statements .. not upon me .. the person Jahangir. Have I attacked you as a person in any of my arguments? No. Everything I have said has been a rational argument driven by what I believe are logic and solid points. You may not agree with me but that gives you no right to judge me. You defend your point of view as intensely as I defend mine ... how does that make me the one with an ego problem?

Henceforth, please try to stick the issue being discussed .. and attack the issue and arguments .. dont attack your opponent as a person, thats just lame.