Its simple, tijani's arguments aren't good...

ironic that you say that Umer, because it was Ali (RA) himself that said he would always win in a debate against a knowledgeable person but would always lose to an ignorant person...naturally, because an ignorant person argues on no basis and is full of hot air.

Yeah, that more or less sums up wahhabis in a nutshell.

He must have been debating ignorant and illiterate villagers

few years back when Tijani samawi was in bombay/india some wahabis debated and finally when they saw losing they resorted to violence , normal wahabi behavious,and police was called to disperse the situation

Not really mehnaz, the sunni ulema have empowered lay sunnis with the ability to see through weak arguments like tijani's...Really the man was not an alim. I'm all up for debate and discussion but if he was really a sunni alim who converted i'm sure he woulda been able to bring some new arguments to the table and refute sunni counter arguments. But he does no such thing. He engages in low-level polemics and presents them like they're some kinda new revelation that will totally undermine sunniism...its a cheap tactic to confuse clueless sunnis and embolden shias about their own faith...

Unfortunately for you Mehnaz, you kinda hit the spot, one of the signs of the day of judgement is too many "ulama" and not enough "elm".

So in correction to your statement, that says a lot about "ulama" in general. I have never heard of these ones that are referenced, so naturally anywhere where whoever is implementing this fabrication can stick Ali's name high and low, he will (and did) their goal behind some random names "sunni ulama" which may not even exist.

i guess that says a lot about sunni "ulema".

Khanaseeb, the "facts" or fiction rather displayed above in this journal.

Umer, I wholeheartedly agree.

lol this book is hilarious...who are these sunni 'shaykhs' tijani is engaging? i don' think they're really 'shaykhs'. i think he was really discussing these issues with some special ed elementry school kids.

lol i was reading some of tijani's arguments, the premise of the book (a sunni alim's conversion to shiism) clearly fraudulent. his arguments are low level polemics that a lay people like myself could refute...the man was clearly no aalim...the book probably serves the same function as peshawar nights i.e. to teach shias about their own faith...

i didnt get your question , can you be more specific please

thanks for the link Khanaseeb, I will read as I read other books, with interest and akeen eye for detail. Now, tell me you don;t believe in what's above.

Thanks bro keeper for awaring me, i was sunni till few years ago and now proud to to be shia -alhamdolillah, if you are interested in reading true story of sunni aalim who wrote this book and became shia, heres the link, book is called then i was guided

www.al-islam.org

now that's interesting. Anyone know if Khanaseeb is aware of this?...or is abu hurairah, like tabbari, only quoted when it is in someone's best interest and their motive.

Actually, The-keeper, I have already posted an article showing how the CLASSICAL SHIA RIJAL scholars relied heavily on Abu Huraira (R) as a trsut-worthy narrators... it is only a relatively new phenomenon that this idea that Abu Huraira (R) fabricated hadeeth is being pushed by them...

Khanaseeb said : "khiladi, how could these rafidhis exaggerate when the bani ummaya and bani abbas were rulers and these tyrants killed prophets family member but couldnt control these rafidhis exaggerating, yeah for sure they exaggerated by bribing abu huraira(master of hadith fabricating everything is qala rasool allah , all these daeef hadith is filled in history to degrade ahlulbait(as) and promote these tyrants and misguide muslim ummah)"

1. ya for sure doesn't cut it to me to disrespect a man of high status such as abu hurairah. I know you have no respect for neither him or Al-Bukhari and don't believe their reported hadiths, but in all honesty, I doubt he would report and be responsible for, fake hadiths with everything he has done. He was a riteous man and to indicate that "ya for sure he was bribed" is a very dangerous accusation. Although, with your perspective, I can see you would not accept anything except the hadiths narrated by your imams and which disregard anything related to the other khalifas holding strong grounds over anyone else.

2.There is different levels of hadiths and as far as I know, not all reported by Abu hurairah were weak as you seem to indicate.

3. FYI, I have never ever seen a single hadith which degardes anyone from ahl albait, if anything I only see from your sources anything that can possibly be fabricated and was, to bring down the honourable reputations of Sayyidna Abu Bakr and Sayyidna Umar (may Allah be pleased with them as they are two of the ones given glad tidings for ferdous along with the Prophet s.a.w.)...to support the cause of saying it should be a hereditary passing of ruling the umma.

4.And I have a question about something that was recently brought to my attention....is it true that shia (or some) believe there were ayahs taken out from the current version of the quran?...that the quran as we see it today isn't the complete one? I hope someone can help me with this one.

In response to SayyidMusawi, I am posting this once again.

First let us provide an outline of the Hadith of Kasa and the raised issue for those readers who might not be familiarised with the story.

In its generic form (that could be true according to most of the different versions of the hadith, as will be discussed later), this is the outline of the story:

"The Prophet calls Ali, Fatima, Hassan and Hussayn -RAhom- and takes them under a cloak with himself and reads the last part of the verse 33:33 and says to the effect that Oh God these are my Ahl Albayt so make them clean (referring to the content of 33:33)."

Our Shia brothers (referring to a particular version of the hadith) argue that this hadith tells us that the term Ahl Albayt in 33:33 exclusively means the above great persons.

This was a summary of the issue under discussion.

Part of what I would like to explain has been posted before in an answer to a relevant question. I recommend that you read that answer before reading the rest of this post. You can find it here:

About the Purity of Ahl'l Bayet (The Prophet's Household)

If you appreciate what was explained in the above answer you will agree with me that no matter who is meant with the word Ahl Albayt in 33:33, the verse does not imply any extra-ordinary merits (e.g. infallibility) for the addressees of the verse. Accordingly while it is interesting to investigate who the Ahl Albayt are, the result of this investigation (what ever it might be) cannot affect our understanding of our belief as a Muslim.

After this introduction let us look at the word Ahl Albayt and the Hadith that is known as Kasa (Cloak).

My dear brother, we should appreciate that the Qur'an is an Arabic book that has been revealed to people whose language was Arabic. We will misinterpret the Qur'an if we attempt to understand its words in a way that was not (and could not be) understood by the primary addressees of the book. Today if you ask an Arab friend to come to your house with his Ahl Albayt, the default is that he will come to you with his wife and children who are still staying in his house, he might bring his married children and their spouses or he might not. He might even bring a friend if the friend is considered as one of the permanent residents of his house. He will be extremely shocked if he finds that by Ahl Albayt you meant his married children and grand children and NOT his wife. This is because for any Arab, the word Ahl Albayt (which literally means those staying in the house) includes the wife (or wives) of a person. This was in no way any different at the time of the Prophet (pbuh). (It is interesting that even in Iran (being a Shia-Muslim dominated country) people use the word Ahl Albayt to refer to the wife as well as children of a person.)

If you look at any popular book of Arabic words you will find that in the definition of Ahl Albayt, wife (ves) are included. If you look at elsewhere in the Qur'an (11:73) you will find that one's wife is included in the meaning of the term. If you look at the usage of the term by the Prophet, his wives and his companions (as recorded in the books of Hadith and history) you will find that it was used in its default meaning (that includes wife).

Now we know that the Qur'an was revealed (not to confuse or misguide people but) to guide people. As such one of the features of the Qur'an that all scholars agree with is its firmness and straightforwardness in establishing the religious concepts. If for any reason, God wanted to change the default meaning of the term Ahl Albayt and use it in a meaning that was not known to its addressees then the style of the Qur'an makes us expect to see this transformation of meaning firmly established in the Qur'an, in particular when (according to Shia brothers) understanding this meaning will have such a huge effect on our belief. Not only this has not happened in the Qur'an but (as I referred to earlier) the term Ahl Albayt has been used in its default meaning elsewhere in the Qur'an.

Let me also reemphasise the point that was made in the above link that the context in which 33:33 is placed in the Qur'an makes it absolutely clear that the phrase Ahl Albayt is used in its generally understood meaning and leaves no room for discussion in this regard.

Furthermore, it should also be clear that hadith is not a source of determining the meanings of common Arabic words and phrases of the Qur'an. Hadith cannot (and is not capable of) changing the default meaning of a word or phrase that is inline with its context.

Accordingly (and this is a very important point which I cannot emphasise enough) it is the Hadith of Kasa that has to be understood by verses 33:30-35 and not vice versa.

Now all the above arguments might make an impression that Hadith of Kasa is a hadith that firmly suggests wives are not included in the term Ahl Albayt. I will try to show you that this is not at all a case in the remaining of this answer:

Hadith of Kasa has been narrated in a variety of forms.

I try to summarise these here:

In some versions it says that the Prophet came out of his house and then covered these great persons under his cloak and then read the last part of the verse 33:33. This version is narrated in some of the books of Hadith, in particular in the book of Muslim: Muslim: 2424, also in (Mustadrak 4707)- Musnafe Ibn Abi Shayba 32102, Sunane Beyhaqqi 2680.

The same sort of story happens in Fatima's house while Wasila Ibn Al'Asqa is there. He hears that the Prophet reads the last part of the verse 33:33 about Ahl Albayt and then referring to these four personalities says Oh God these are my Ahl and my Ahl are more deserved (for the context of this verse). Wasila asks the Prophet whether he (being always near the Prophet's house and under his protection) is also among his Ahl, the Prophet says yes. (Wasila was one of the companions known as Ashab Al-Soffa. These were people who had embraced Islam but were very poor and had no places of their own; they were gathered and stayed near the Prophet house). This version can be found in Sahih Ibn Haban, 6976 also in Sunane Beyhaqqi 2690. This is also narrated in the Shia book of Al-Burhan (3:321).

The same sort of story happens in Umme Salame's house with no additions (no Q.A.). The Prophet says oh Allah these are my Ahl Albayt and my Ahl Albayt are more deserved for this. This is narrated in Musnad Ibn Abi Shayba 32103.

Same story happens in the house of Umme Salame, it is said that the verse was revealed there, then the Prophet asked for these personalities and gathered them under the cloak and read the verse and prayed for them. Umme Salama asks isn't she his Ahl Albayt, the Prophet says she is of his Ahl and that his Ahl deserves more for this prayer. Mustadrak - 3558:

Same story as above and reference that the verse was revealed before the Prophet's prayer but no Q.A. between Umme Salama and the Prophet. Mustadrak - 4705- 4708.

The incident happens like in number 3 above with no Q.A. between the Prophet and others after the prayer. The difference is that here it is indicated that the verse was revealed after the Prophet's prayer. Mustadrak - 4709.

Same story as 4, the verse was revealed before the prayer, Umme Salama asks if she were not his Ahl Albayt, the Prophet says you are in good and you have your own position. Termezi 3205-3787 - Ahmad 26551.

Same story as 4 but in response to Umme Salama the Prophet says "Yes (i.e. you are my Ahl Albayt). Suane Beyhaqqi 2683.

Same story as 4 and in response to Umme Salama the Prophet says, "yes come under the cloak" and she goes under the cloak. Ahmad : 26592. This version is also narrated in the Shia books of Bihar (45:38) and Al-Burhan (3:321) although through Musnade Ahmad.

Now at this stage I do not want to elaborate on the reliability of each of the above versions of the hadith, although by default we expect the first one to be the most reliable (being in the book of Muslim). As it is clear from the above list, the incident has been reported in many different ways, it is possible to say that the incident has happened in different locations and the reports describing the incident in different locations are not necessarily in conflict. On the other hand it is clear that some of the above reports (that are referring to the same location) are in fact in conflict with each other.

I want to point out few facts that can be revealed from the above:

Fact One: Only one of the versions suggests that the verse was revealed as the result of the Prophet's prayer for the five personalities (number 6). Other versions (some of which are in more reliable books of hadith) are either silent about this or indicate that the verse was revealed before the Prophet's prayer (numbers 4, 5, 7, 8). This is an important point because if the verse was revealed after the Prophet's prayer there could be arguments that the verse was primarily revealed for these personalities. However if the verse was revealed before the prayer (as many of the versions of the hadith suggest) then we cannot say that the verse was revealed primarily for these personalities.

Fact Two: In none of the above versions the Prophet clearly suggests that his wife is not from Ahl Albayt. The closest statement to this (Ahl Albayt not including wife) is the version in which the Prophet says you are my Ahl (number 4), but even there the Prophet prioritises his Ahl to his Ahl Albayt in terms of his prayer. As detailed above, there are also some reports that suggest that the Prophet approved the title for his wife (numbers 8 and 9).

Fact Three: The hadith in Muslim (number 1) does not indicate that Ahl Albayt are restricted to these personalities. The hadith in Sunan Beyhaqqi (number 2) is not about Ahl Albayt; in fact it suggests that these personalities are Ahl of the Prophet and not his Ahl Albayt. A companion is also included in Ahl. The rest of the Ahadith are different versions of a same incident that happened in the house of Umme Salama. Many of these different versions are in conflict to each other. Hadith number 4 is also in clear conflict with Hadith number 2 (in terms of who is Ahl and who is Ahl Albayt).

Looking at the other ahadith (other than Kasa) about the phrase Ahl Albayt, I want to establish the forth fact as well:

Fact Four: There are other ahadith in which either the Prophet or his companions or his wives are referring to wives of the Prophet as Ahl Albayt. Some of these are even narrated in Shia books.

We now have two choices:

To look at the above collection of often conflicting versions of the hadith and then to decide what version supports our point of view and stick to that version while closing eyes on the other versions and then try to understand the Qur'an in the light of that very version of Hadith.

To look at the whole picture in the light of the Qur'an to find out what makes better sense and to form or if needed correct our belief accordingly.

I go for the second choice:

Let us assume that all the ahadith were gone and we were left only with the Qur'an. I think any rational thinking human being would then agree that the whole verse of 33:33 refers to the wives of the Prophet.

Now let us add the ahadith to our perspective. In the light of the Qur'an, my rationality tells me that what happens was that (out of his love for his daughter, son in law and grand sons) the Prophet wanted to include these personalities in the primary addressees of the verse 33:33. Therefore he gathered them all close to himself and read the last part of the verse 33:33 to ask the same treatment (as described in 33:33) for them. Upon asking by his wife that if she is also included in this special prayer of the Prophet, the Prophet assures her that she is in a good position (obviously because the verse was initially revealed about the wives). In some of the ahadith it is suggested that this assurance was by saying something to the effect that "you are in good" while in some other versions it says to the effect that "yes you are also from Ahl Albayt".

As you see, what I am doing is that I am trying to understand and explain the overall content of Hadith of Kasa in the light of the Qur'an. What the Shia brothers tend to do is to use only a specific interpretation of a specific verse of the Hadith of Kasa and then trying to understand the verse of the Qur'an based on this.

According to Shia brothers, belief in the notion of Ahl Albayt is one of the fundamentals of belief in Islam.

The Qur'an is a clear book of guidance and when it comes to the fundamentals of belief we can always see strength and clarity of expression, repeating the concept and stressing on it throughout the Qur'an. This is despite the fact that these fundamentals of belief were not totally unknown by the people for whom the Qur'an was revealed. Think of the concept of Tawhid (Oneness of God), Prophethood, Angels, Divine Books and the Day of Judgement to see what I mean.

Now at the first point I cannot see why when it comes to the notion of Ahl Albayt (as put by our Shia brothers), we only arrive on one verse and yet the verse has to be understood out of the context. Moreover the popular phrase of Ahl Albayt has to be interpreted differently from what is generally understood from the phrase. Also a specific version of a single Hadith (or very few ahadith) should be used to understand the (supposedly) correct meaning of the verse.

If for the sake of discussion we agree that such a vague and misguiding way of expression can be used in the book of guidance to establish a concept, then in the next step, the same problem occurs, this time about the Prophet (instead of the Qur'an) and Hadith of Kasa (instead of the verse 33:33).

The Prophet was a very capable religious leader, he always used to talk very clearly and in important matters he used to repeat his words and make sure that all have understood it. In some occasions he used to ask people "did I deliver the message to you" to make sure no doubts remained.

Now the Prophet (supposedly) wants to establish a new meaning for the phrase Ahl Albayt. I cannot think why such an important matter should be done in the privacy of a house where only one person other than people involved can see it (or based on the hadith from Muslim, in a sudden occasion out of the house). Doesn't such a big message deserve to be announced formally in the crowd like other important messages that the Prophet delivered throughout his life? If the answer to this is that this was merely an incident and the Prophet did not want to use it to establish the supposedly transformed meaning of Ahl Albayt, then my next question would be, "then from what clear and strong evidence a Muslim of our time (or even Muslims at the time of the Prophet) should come to understand the (supposedly) new meaning of the phrase Ahl Albayt".

At the end let me repeat what was discussed in the link at the beginning of this response that even if for the sake of argument we agree that Ahl Albayt based on Hadith of Kasa exclusively means these five great personalities, (based on the arguments I put forward in that link) this will not prove anything extra ordinary for them and most importantly will not add any thing to our beliefs as Muslims.
understanding-islam.com

Assalamu Alaikum,

I hope the following narrations from Sahih Muslim help in this issue. They explain many things which I think all of you will immediately see.
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Book 031, Number 5920:

Yazid b. Hayyan reported, I went along with Husain b. Sabra and 'Umar b. Muslim to Zaid b. Arqam and, as we sat by his side, Husain said to him: Zaid. you have been able to acquire a great virtue that you saw Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) listened to his talk, fought by his side in (different) battles, offered prayer behind me. Zaid, you have in fact earned a great virtue. Zaid, narrate to us what you heard from Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him). He said: I have grown old and have almost spent my age and I have forgotten some of the things which I remembered in connection with Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him), so accept whatever I narrate to you, and which I do not narrate do not compel me to do that. He then said: One day Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) stood up to deliver sermon at a watering place known as Khumm situated between Mecca and Medina. He praised Allah, extolled Him and delivered the sermon and. exhorted (us) and said: Now to our purpose. O people, I am a human being. I am about to receive a messenger (the angel of death) from my Lord and I, in response to Allah's call, (would bid good-bye to you), but I am leaving among you two weighty things: the one being the Book of Allah in which there is right guidance and light, so hold fast to the Book of Allah and adhere to it. He exhorted (us) (to hold fast) to the Book of Allah and then said: The second are the members of my household I remind you (of your duties) to the members of my family. He (Husain) said to Zaid: Who are the members of his household? Aren't his wives the members of his family? Thereupon he said: His wives are the members of his family (but here) the members of his family are those for whom acceptance of Zakat is forbidden. And he said: Who are they? Thereupon he said: 'Ali and the offspring of 'Ali, 'Aqil and the offspring of 'Aqil and the offspring of Ja'far and the offspring of 'Abbas. Husain said: These are those for whom the acceptance of Zakat is forbidden. Zaid said: Yes.

Book 031, Number 5921:

This hadith has been narrated on the authority of Zaid b. Arqam through another chain of transmitters.

Book 031, Number 5922:

This hadith has been transmitted on the authority of Abu Hayyan but with this addition:" The Book of Allah contains right guidance, the light, and whoever adheres to it and holds it fast, he is upon right guidance and whosoever deviates from it goes astray.

Book 031, Number 5923:

Yazid b. Hayyan reported: We went to him (Zaid b. Arqam) and said to him. You have found goodness (for you had the honour) to live in the company of Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) and offered prayer behind him, and the rest of the hadith is the same but with this variation of wording that lie said: Behold, for I am leaving amongst you two weighty things, one of which is the Book of Allah, the Exalted and Glorious, and that is the rope of Allah. He who holds it fast would be on right guidance and he who abandons it would be in error, and in this (hadith) these words are also found: We said: Who are amongst the members of the household? Aren't the wives (of the Holy Prophet) included amongst the members of his house hold? Thereupon he said: No, by Allah, a woman lives with a man (as his wife) for a certain period; he then divorces her and she goes back to her parents and to her people; the members of his household include his ownself and his kith and kin (who are related to him by blood) and for him the acceptance of Zakat is prohibited.

Book 031, Number 5915:

This hadith has been narrated. on the authority of Shu'ba with the same chain of transmitters. Amir b. Sa'd b. Abi Waqqas reported on the authority of his father that Muawiya b. Abi Sufyin appointed Sa'd as the Governor and said: What prevents you from abusing Abu Turab (Hadrat 'Ali), whereupon he said: It is because of three things which I remember Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) having said about him that I would not abuse him and even if I find one of those three things for me, it would be more dear to me than the red camels. I heard Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) say about 'Ali as he left him behind in one of his campaigns (that was Tabuk). 'Ali said to him: Allah's Messenger, you leave me behind along with women and children. Thereupon Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) said to him: Aren't you satisfied with being unto me what Aaron was unto Moses but with this exception that there is no prophethood after me. And I (also) heard him say on the Day of Khaibar: I would certainly give this standard to a person who loves Allah and his Messenger and Allah and his Messenger love him too. He (the narrator) said: We have been anxiously waiting for it, when he (the Holy Prophet) said: Call 'Ali. He was called and his eyes were inflamed. He applied saliva to his eyes and handed over the standard to him, and Allah gave him victory. (The third occasion is this) when the (following) verse was revealed:" Let us summon our children and your children." Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) called 'Ali, Fitima, Hasan and Husain and said: O Allah, they are my family.

Book 031, Number 5955:

'A'isha reported that Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) went out one norning wearing a striped cloak of the black camel's hair that there came Hasan b. 'Ali. He wrapped hitn under it, then came Husain and he wrapped him under it along with the other one (Hasan). Then came Fatima and he took her under it, then came 'Ali and he also took him under it and then said: Allah only desires to take away any uncleanliness from you, O people of the household, and purify you (thorough purifying).

*janitorial*