The "19" thesis was disproven, however, it has does have a lot of strength.

There are other mathematical proofs of sorts that still hold strong.

I guess wat we had set out to discuss was the significance of the number 40 if there is any, somehow it changed to trying to prove that the Quran is built on a mathematical frame work which is unparalleled (*agree) and later to trying to prove that 19 is a wonder figure. And may I add here that the language of Quran is not simple. Every single word has a context, a background, a story of its own and the meanings get deeper and thicker once u delve more into it. The mere translation of the text can never do justice to the word of Allah SWA.
As far as our concern for 40 remains, i personally dont know or cant point to any significance that it may have, but yes the period of a month and tend days is used in a lot of faiths and has very different connotations. Will try and find some more on it.

All those who are fooled by the simple but beautiful language of the Quran, did not realize that behind that linguistically beautiful composition, is one of the most sophisticated mathematical system. A system that cannot be imitated even with the help of a computer and after the discovery has been made in 1974. Keep in mind that the Quran was revealed to Muhammed, over 1400 years ago when no man could have made such a book with the complex mathematical formulas.

I really do hope this information adds some insight into your opinion. There is one more thing I am so happy to read your comments Deeppanpizza it's so encouraging to know that you do think about these philosophical concepts , brilliant (A)

All those who challenged the Quran, A thought that was never stated in the Quran or demanded by God. They challenged the eloquence of the language and the style of the Quran. So far, no one challenged the Quran as God planned to have it, a mathematically composed book with every letter, word, verse and sura like a complex structure interlocked like a huge puzzle where the pieces have to fit exactly in place. To do so, every piece of that huge puzzle has to have the right number of letters, the number of words, verses and the right order among the other suras. In the next few paragraphs we will explain to you, As part of the proofs, God in the Quran used 14 of the 28 Arabic alphabets to create an awesomely designed intricate link between the chapters (Suras), verses (Sentences), words, letters, their location, their frequency and the actual numbers in the book. All these designs are based on number 19 per verse 74:30 in the Quran.

This mathematical discovery proved that every chapter, sentence, word, letter and number in the Quran is but a part of an intricate mathematical composition of the book. This involved the whole book from the first letter "Ba" in Sura one to the last letter "Seen" in Sura 114.
The book as a whole, the suras and verses, collectively and separately are built into a most sophisticated mathematical structure that guarantees the authenticity of the book and guards against any human interference. It also makes it impossible to imitate the book even after the code is known
.

Thanks Javed. I never looked at it that way. But since you mentioned, I start to beleive it.

I merely make the decision to recite to you God?s revelation. You make the decision to believe or disbelieve. God then makes the decision to guide you further or leave you astray. That said, here is the entire sura 74 addressed to the miracle of 19:

O you hidden secret.
Come out and warn.
Extol your Lord.
Purify your garment.
Forsake what is wrong.
Be content with your lot.
Steadfastly commemorate your Lord.
Then, when the horn is blown.
That will be a difficult day.
For the disbelievers, not easy.
Let Me deal with one I created as an individual.
I provided him with lots of money.
And children to behold.
I made everything easy for him.
Yet, he is greedy for more.
He stubbornly refused to accept these proofs.
I will increasingly punish him.
For he reflected, then decided.
Miserable is what he decided.
Miserable indeed is what he decided.
He looked.
He frowned and whined.
Then he turned away arrogantly.
He said, ?This is but clever magic!
?This is human made.?
I will commit him to retribution.
What retribution!
Thorough and comprehensive.
Obvious to all the people.
Over it is nineteen.
We appointed angels to be guardians of Hell, and we assigned their number (19) (1) to disturb the disbelievers, (2) to convince the Christians and Jews (that this is a divine scripture), (3) to strengthen the faith of the faithful, (4) to remove all traces of doubt from the hearts of Christians, Jews, as well as the believers, and (5) to expose those who harbor doubt in their hearts, and the disbelievers; they will say, ?What did God mean by this allegory?? God thus sends astray whomever He wills, and guides whomever He wills. None knows the soldiers of your Lord except He. This is a reminder for the people.
Absolutely, (I swear) by the moon.
And the night as it passes.
And the morning as it shines.
This is one of the great miracles.
A warning to the human race.
For those among you who wish to advance, or regress.
Every soul is trapped by its sins.
Except for those on the right.
While in Paradise, they will ask.
About the guilty.
?What brought you to this retribution??
They will say, ?We did not observe the contact prayers (Salat).
?We did not feed the poor.
?We blundered with the blunderers.
?We disbelieved in the Day of Judgment.
?Until certainty came to us now.?
The intercession of the intercessors will never help them.
Why are they so averse to this reminder?
Running like zebras.
Who are fleeing from the lion!
Does each one of them want to receive the scripture personally?
Indeed, they do not fear the Hereafter.
Indeed, this is a reminder.
For those who wish to take heed.
They cannot take heed against God's will. He is the source of righteousness; He is the source of forgiveness

What the Qur??n Says About the Number 19
The Qur??n does indeed make a reference to the number 19 as something especially meaningful. In fact, were this not the case, then we would have no evidence that the 19-based patterns in it were indeed the Author's intent. Here is ?Abd All?h Y?suf ?Al?'s translation of 74:30 and the five verses that follow. Keep in mind that Y?suf ?Al? .
74:30?Over it are Nineteen.
74:31?And We have set none but angels as guardians of the Fire; and We have fixed their number only as a trial for Unbelievers,?in order that the People of the Book may arrive at certainty, and the Believers may increase in Faith,?and that no doubts may be left for the People of the Book and the Believers, and that those in whose hearts is a disease and the Unbelievers may say, ?What symbol doth God intend by this?? Thus doth God leave to stray whom He pleaseth, and guide whom He pleaseth: and none can know the forces of thy Lord, except He. And this is no other than a warning to mankind.
74:32?Nay, verily: by the Moon,
74:33?And by the Night as it retreateth,
74:34?And by the Dawn as it shineth forth,?
74:35?This is but one of the mighty (portents).
The phrase ?over it are nineteen? actually translates as ?over it, nineteen.? The pronoun ?it? evidently refers to ?Hell-Fire,? from a preceding verse, as Y?suf ?Al? translates it (saqar, in Arabic). From this phrase, it is impossible to tell whether there are nineteen of anything actually floating above Hell-Fire, or whether there is nothing more than the eerie apparition of the number 19 itself.
The term ?their number? in verse 74:31 quite literally means ?their number???iddatahum. This could, of course, refer either to an actual quantity (of angels), or perhaps to a bit of numerical symbolism by which they identify themselves. It is ?their number,? after all; what they do with it is another matter. In fact, it could refer to both. In addition, while it seems to make intuitive sense that angels would somehow be floating ?over? Hell-Fire if that is what they are guarding, nowhere does the Qur??n actually say that. It merely says that they are its guardians, and that ?their number? is nineteen.
The term ?We have fixed? is ja?aln?. This is the same word used for ?We have set? in the preceding clause. The verb used here is a very general one that can mean quite a few different things. The dictionary translation is ?make,? ?put,? ?place,? or ?render.? Once again, the Qur??n refrains from definitively excluding either possibility as the correct interpretation. We know nothing more than that God has treated two things the same in this passage. He has ?set,? ?fixed,? ?made,? ?put,? ?placed,? or ?rendered? the guardians of Hell-Fire on the one hand, and ?their number? on the other.

Oh Wowwwwww lol (A) I am not saying that we just need to concentrate on the number game alone, It's the Holy Scripture we need to pay attention. It's not just a book. My answer is very long so I?ll write in intervals so that you can digest the first part before.

The Use of Statistics to Analyze the Qur??n

Analyzing the mathematical structure of the Qur??nic text involves generating data sets using concise, meticulously crafted definitions and then computing probabilities associated with specific phenomena.
Although there are several anomalies that can be looked at in the Qur??n, but our attention will mainly be focused on looking for multiples of 19 specifically. To the extent that other structural features are examined, the appropriate statistical tools will be employed and explained at that time, God willing. Meanwhile, let us look at how we would generate and analyze a data set where 19-divisibility is central to our research problem. The question that the statistical approach intends to answer is whether the frequency of multiples of 19 in a given configuration of these numbers is what we should expect from random chance or not. If so, then we cannot say there is anything meaningful in them, for they would then be no different from what we would find in any other book. But if they do indeed deviate from the norm in any striking fashion, then we have to ask ourselves: Why are they there? Is it a freak accident or is there other evidence in the Qur??n that this was intentional? Lastly, if it was intentional, how was it accomplished? The answer to these questions could conceivably say a lot about the origin, nature, and ultimate purpose of the Holy Scripture of Isl?m.

Defining Data Sets: . In order to test any hypothesis, a concise definition must generate a data set?the set of numbers that is be analyzed. If you make the table of muqa& #355;& #355;a??t, you will notice that several chapters (s?r?t) have identical muqa& #355;& #355;a?ah sets, while others have unique sets, sometimes comprising a single letter. We might generate our data set using the definition, ?total quantity of muqa& #355;& #355;a??t in a s?rah.? If so, then we will generate a total of thirty data points, one for each initialed chapter, plus one for the additional muqa& #355;& #355;a?ah set in S?rah 42. On the other and, we might generate our data set using the definition, ?total muqa& #355;& #355;a??t in a group of s& #369;r?t introduced by the same muqa& #355;& #355;a?ah set.? If so, then we will generate a total of fourteen data points, one for each group of s& #369;r?t introduced by the same set of initials. It is possible to generate only a few logical configurations from the table of muqa& #355;& #355;a??t without diverging from cohesive definitions. However, more than one data set can conceivably be generated from the raw numbers. Consequently, we must be concerned with how we define our data sets.

Implications of Our Findings: Even if there are errors in our data, statistical tests can provide enough information for us to draw informed conclusions about the basic nature of what we are examining. Are the numbers of letters an intentional part of the text? In other words, did the Author plan it that way? If so, what do they seek to tell us? If we notice a statistically significant pattern, are we actually looking at it directly or are we just close enough to see an indirect reflection of it? If it is an indirect reflection, is this because we have not identified the proper configuration? Is it because there are errors in our counts? Is it because the text has been altered? Statistics is capable of informing our judgment about such matters and giving us clues about how to proceed with each subsequent step based on objective conclusions.

Beeeeeeach can I have water! :-

Oh come on now Javed. You said numerical value of WAHD is 19 but you are using English alphabets for an Arabic word. I dont know what we are trying to prove here. How is this for a coincidence.
Javed's long comments dated Sept 30th has 1729 words without spaces. 1729 is divisble by 19 and if you devide it by 19, you get 91 which is just rearranged 19. Also if we add the date he posted these comments, we get 19 (09-30-2005 -- 0+9+3+0+2+0+0+5=19)
Nice coincidence, but again, what do we about it?

I know of the numerical significance of Arabic letters, eg. 786 = Bismillah... That doesnt necessarily preclude that '40' can still be of significance.

You've explained 19. Any thoughts on 40?

Btw, Jesus was also in the desert for 40 days and 40 nights

lol :) sorry to confuse you Deeppanpizza. Right now I am a little pressed for time. But I'll try to answer your Q ,as soon as I can. Sorry once again friend I did'nt realize that you'll find it hard to understand!

Interesting point Shazia, If you thank and search carefully, you?ll notice, that another aspect of the Quran's mathematical design is the use of the geometrical values of the Arabic letters. The geometrical value of a letter is the numerical value assigned to it. When the Quran was revealed, fourteen centuries ago, numbers as we know them today did not exist. Instead, there was a universally accepted numerical system where the letters of the Arabic, Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek alphabets were used as numerals. The number assigned to each letter is considered to be its geometrical value.
Another example The ?Basmalah?It is the opening statement of the Quran, and is composed of exactly 19 Arabic letters. The four words and the 19 letters of the Basmalah are put together according to a mathematical system, which is humanly impossible to compose. First, what is the probability for the Basmalah's mathematical composition to occur by coincidence? Can we compute this probability? If we can, how? Based on our assumption of coincidental occurrence, we can treat each number in Facts 2-9 as a random number. The probability of several random numbers being not only in a certain format, but also forming a number "n" that is a multiple of 19, can be difficult to compute unless we make some assumptions to simplify the problem. For example, the highest probability of obtaining "n" will be when we assume that the four numbers represented by the question marks above are all single digit numbers (0-9). In that case, the resultant number ?n? will have 8 digits since we know that the other four numbers are also single digit (1-4). Then we can easily compute the probability of 8 random numbers resulting in the desired format. Let us see how we can do this.
Besides having unique mathematical properties, such as being a prime number, the number 19 is the geometrical value of the word "ONE" in all scriptural languages Aramaic, Hebrew, and Arabic. For example, in Arabic, the word for "ONE" is "WAHD" (pronounced Waahed). the geometrical values of the letters W, A, H, and D are 6, 1, 8, and 4, respectively. These numbers add up to 19 (6+1+8+4=19).

I think as reason-searching beings, it is natural for us to look for patterns or explanations. Example, after 9/11 there were lots of theories re. why 9/11 was the date chosen. Some things just are - that is just the way it is. There is not always a reason - it's randomness.

On another note and to contradict myself now :), many of our religious traditions are interconnected. A lot more than we think although now of course each religion believes it hols the Complete Truth. For example, Zorastrians have a story remarkably like Jesus' birth with the three wise men bringing gifts - in fact it's practically identical to the Biblical story. Therefore, as upsetting as it may be to some people, the reason why 40 is mentioned in different religious traditions is that the stories may be similar or that they copied each other - so that the common person would be able to find the same recurring pattern etc...

Deeppanpizza!
This is the age of science and reason. It is impossible for an intelligent person to accept the existence of God or the divine origin of any religion on blind faith. . Besides, there are so many different religious faiths, each preaching theirs to be the right way. This makes the choice extremely difficult. Today all religions are nothing but various sets of traditions, rather than facts since they have lost their original message with time. Such corruption in religion has been caused by human ego and inventions that eventually distorted the truth for political and economic gain. The sad part is those people who want to turn to the basics of religion are considered out of line with society.
Another important point which I would like to mention is that athough the Quran advocates that it is for all people and for all generations, many people perceive it to be the holy book only for the Muslims, and the religion of Islam. This is mainly because the Islam practiced by the Muslims around the world today is vastly different than what is presented in the Quran.

but if we were to reduce our birthday to only one #, eventually there would be approximatly an equal amount of people whose numbers are 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8 or 9... thats just plain probability...

i believe in numerology, it is called ilme-jafar in arabic, which means knowledge of numbers, where numbers are added till they become single digit and also i have met people in india who has done good research on it , i have observed significant importance of numbers in life,
40 here is 4 + 0 which is 4 finally, eg someone was born on 9/9/1969 then 9+9+1+9+6+9 = 43 = 7

I would think that at some point in our lives we all like to think about the creation of our self, of everything what we see around us, and the existence of a creator. It is not unnatural for us to ponder upon our origins and the purpose of our existence. For some people, explanations which are provided to them by the religion they were born into are sufficient, some might be satisfied with the theory that life evolved on the planet because of its particular circumstances. However, there are many crazy people like me, who believe in religious doctrines or scientific theories, are maybe doubtful, perhaps subconsciously, of the explanations provided to us. Although these people entertain many unanswered questions in their minds, and the majority of these people follow the crowd - suppressing their doubts and questions. Only a minority actively searches for the truth and tries to find answers to these questions. My point is we live in an age of science and computers. We consider ourselves intelligent beings that do not accept ideas, which cannot be proven.

Babaganoush, my friend good song, but I am not a big fan of MJ! (A)

MJ has some good songs.... but...umm.....can I just say - eeeiiiiwwww!!

Spiritaulity and Hollywood seldom go hand in hand, unless stars actually work for good causes....

For forty days and for forty nights
The law was on her side
But who can stand when she's in demand
Her schemes and plans
'Cause we danced on the floor in the round
So take my strong advice, just remember to always think twice
(Do think twice)
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