As851 - yes, i do think we are looking at the same thing from different angles. your example of the importance of this distiction in the Iraqi constitution is well noted. good point. I was not so much thinking on such a practical level, but rather a more philosophical one. I believe that "bad" or "good" are not realtive and your first coment seemed to be leaning towards you thinking that they were. (I am NOT a believer in cultural relativism)

Anyway, great discussion, thanks! :)

As851 - i, actually, respectfully disagree. I do not think that the two (sin and crime) are necessarily different. If I murder an innocent person, I have committed a crime in all/any country (I am not 100% sure, but i think it is a crime in all countries) and that is punishable by law - although those laws as to the punishment and process of it differ. I have also, in this murderous act, committed a grave sin. I have acted as God and taken the earthly life away of an innocent person and hurt his family, friends and taken away all possibility for him to add to the community in the future as well. This is undoubtedly a sin!

Murder is just one example, but I think that - even if you are not living under the Sharia, that it is very possible to commit a sin and a crime in one act.

In the Bible, Jesus (PBUH) is asked if Jews must pay taxes to the polythiestic Romans or is their only allegience to God. Jesus answers "render to Ceaser what is Ceasers and render to God what is God's"... which is a pretty deep thing to say since all things belong to and come from God. But the fact remains that although we are religious people and should foremost follow the laws of God as best we know them, we are also citizins and we have a responsibility to follow the earthly laws as long as they are just. If we break a just law, we are acting unjustly and breaking our unwritten commitment to our community and state and thus, committing a sin simutaniously.

Does any of what I'm saying make sense? lol. I hope so. :)

Allah is the beginningless, the eternal.

just wanted to make it 100!!!! Adaab every1

Elle79: Sister, its the Matter of Adl on Allah's part, i have sinned against u. hurt u, and broke ALLahs command, i can ask for forgiveness frm ALLAH for breakin his law, but how can he forgive me for wht i have DONE to you...? i think its against HIS justice....

Sultan Bahu says:

Na mein sunni na mein shia, mera dohaan ton dil sarriya HU
Mukk gaye saaray khushki painday, dariya wahdat jud wariya HU

I'm neither shia, nor sunni, for I'm disillusioned from them both
People dispute sitting on the beach, while I drowned in the ocean of his oneness.

Congratulations to those who, in the year 2005, are in the spiritual company of the Prophet(sm), and his family, and his companions. As for the rest of us, its appropriate that we keep splitting hair in intellectual discussions, selling to others things that we ourselves know little about.

Oh people of the book, you disputed in that which was revealed to you. Now must you dispute in that too, about which you know nothing.

peace Elle79 and everyone reading - i wasnt really following the thread and dont know who said what - but i did catch Elle79's post and i thought right yes i have heard this also and simply wondered if you or anyone knew the source of the thought - unless that person forgives u, ALLAH wont .... and yes i agree that Allah is the final and best judge all is under Allah's prerogative - i would really like to know where this thought is from - it is something i have heard lots ... if anyone knows its origin please let me know ... thanks
peace out

Assalamu'alaikum, I personally don't think a person must be forgiven by the victim in order to be forgiven by God. I think people interpreted me wrong... I was quoting what Asaaaad said. The story of the Saint of Rajab shows that even a person who never sought forgiveness from his many victims and was cursed by our Prophet (saw) can still be forgiven by Allah swt and risen to the point of sainthood. No one knows what Allah will do and certainly no one can claim whether another person is "saved" or not, because sometimes the worst of us are the best in His Blessed Eyes.

Only Difference between ur point of view and my point of view, is tat, I had hold the Family of Prophet more than i do sahaba, TAT doesn NOT mean i do not respect the sahaba, BUT the family is closer to me than sahaba.

And you think otherwise....

Spiritual_gem1: Please dnt come to conclusion by yourself....
"mera hussain abhi karbala nahgin pohncha"
main hurr houn magar lashkar-e-yazeed main houn"

duniya ka ko bedar to hone do
har kaom pukare gi hamara hai hussain

sirat-e-mustaqim is seerat-e-Hussain....

BellaDona: La qum deenu kum waliaDin

ye jo haq hai ye andaaz-e-nabi hai,
wali woh hai jo haq ka wali hai,
kulle iman ko jo na samhh paya
insaano ye tumhari bad`naseebi hai

Sister SG1:: jazakAllah khair sister. i understand and completely agree with you. I was just trying to explain how facts and truth got mingled up by time.

thnx for Qoutations in favour of sahaba from some Auliya Allah. Quran speaks high about them and so its a part of our faith to believe on them and their eman...coz as you said, if eman of sahaba-e-karaam is mashkook, all the deen becomes mashkook as well.

good point abut "fazilat-e-Ali" and "afzaliyat-e-Ali"..i think it summerizes everything.
And thnx abt a profound and realistic conclusion from Qarbala event as well.

Ameen to your Dua.



Assaaaad:: "Accidental war" is not that accidental a concept..it happens. there was no recruiting or anything..the fight(cant even call it a war) was an unexpected event.
if you and i know repentence needs forgivness from the hurt party, i have lil doubt that the campanions of rasool SAW failed ignored it.
i can dig out loads of facts to counter your facts but then i beleive its nmot worth the trouble. sahaba are not to b judged and i think SG concluded it well. lets not raise our voices against what we know not and get our share in sins.Allah knows the best and Quran is the ultimate truth.
FaA

sister Elle79

question about that "unless that person forgives u, ALLAH wont" i have heard that also - where is it from? Quran Hadith do you know where from?

peace out

thanks, elle, for the link! :) I totally agree with that philosophy too (as would the Catholic Church). A sin is not just between you and God, but it damages others and often can hurt the community too... they need to be recognized and get validation of that break in trust, etc. (if you sin and it involves them too).

"repent, yes offcourse u can repent, But can only repent to ALLAH, if u have gone against his will, but if u have hurt a person and caused pain, unless that person forgives u, ALLAH wont. its aganist is Justice."

Please look up the story of the Saint of Rajab. www.deenislam.co.uk Perhaps this is only against /our/ concept of justice... not His.

All praise be to Allah swt who blessed us with eman.

bella: Whatever the history was about, one thing is clear. A muslim fighting a muslim, for watever reason, was a sad episode.
Allah SWT saved us from raising swords against fellow muslims in jammal. lets not get involved in the crime by raising objections and voices...especially when all we know is what a few historian said. truth is never that simple...it needs sight and insight to unveil the reasons and rights. history often gets exaggerated. you can find a lot of "facts" that shias believe clashing with "facts" that Ahlesunnat believe...but lets not make this a reason for dispute.

we are to beleive Quran and hadith. if history clashes with Quran o Hadith, we are not to believe history..no matter what it says.Whe Quran talk about Burat-e-Ayesha, no argument can prove her otherwise. when Quran says sahaba are ppl whom Allah swt loves, no argument of ours can change the facts.

in regards to sufism:
mulana shah wali ullah says:" and remember this and hold to this firm o the wayfarer of truth!!! companions of prophet(SAW) is the best of jammat ever. they are the first witnesses of Quran, wahi and rasaalat. deen reached you and me through them; Allah loves them and his prophet loves them and if you think otherwise, your heart becomes barren as if it had never recieved a drop from the rain of rehmat".

Mulana Allah Yaar Khan writes in "AdeenAl khalis" :
" ... you are not to judge companions of prophet..Allah already gave the verdict forthem "raziAllah u"..Allah is happy with them. this is because if we get confused abt the eman of sahaba, all the deen gets confused..every thing that remains is "taqeeha" then. and understand this clearly, khulfa-e-rashideen are the best people among ummah. you and i can never reach the glory of their shoe dust. so refain from labeling them ...."

baki we all agree on "Fazeelat-e-Ali"....to us all khulfa-e-rasheedin where the best people and we beleive on Fazeelat of each and every one of them..however "Afzaliat" is a matter of clash...just a difference of one "alif".

waqiya-e-Qarbala is a sad episode..shia or sunni , we all beleive it to be one of the saddest event sun ever wittnessed. however, have we learnt the lesson from such a big sacrifice?
if rasool Allah (SAW) asked Hazrat Hussain(RA) on the day of judgment: " o hussain, why in the name of Lord did you got all my family killed? why didn't you saved the heads and hands i kissed,people i loved..my own family??
what will hussain reply?
i am sure he can say : " prophet of Allah!!! i had to choose between deen-e-rasool and khandan-e-rasool. i sacrificed later to save former...to prove that Islam is worth the best heads in the world and no compromise can be made on faith and principles when deen-e-rasool is involved."

have we learnt the lesson? are we following sunnat-e-hussain? what is a "moderate muslim" then...one who sells his own brother to be caged in cuba?? why dont the voices of sister noor from Abu garib sends shivers dowmn our spines? who are we.. working in harmony with kufar to distort image if Islam? are we true with our faith? because what if Hazrat Husssain(RA) asked you and me :" what have you done to the deen for which i sacrificed my life? for the principles for which i chose to die?"
yes brother, i love Hazrat Hussain as well...i am sad on the incidence of Qarbala...but when i look at my self...i feel ashamed...because i knoww i will have no answer other en a few tears if Hussain (RA) asked me that Question.

As it goes:
"mera hussain abhi karbala nahgin pohncha"
main hurr houn magar lashkar-e-yazeed main houn"

may Allah swt bless us with unity, yaqeen and strengh and may when ever the time come, all of us be in the force of hussain(RA)...ready to sacrifice everything for baqa-e-deen."(ameen)

forgive me if i said something wrong.

FeAmanillah.

Sister, Muslims died in the battle of Jamal and Siffin, And what was the cause and who were involved. read the history and u will find out.

My love is not blind, Whn i praise ALLAH and worship him, not becuase my faith tells me to do so, its cuz i dont find anyone more worthy Than ALLAH to bow down infront of. i dont worship for the fear of hell, or the greed of heaven.

abt the facts, ma`am, if the facts doesnt mean anythin to u, or u dont understand, then i cant do anythin. As i am not judgin anyone for anyone. Facts are here, u can draw any conclusion u wish for or dont nothin abt it.

Accidential war?!? cme on sis, thr aint no accidential war, thr was a reason for it, Cuz Ali the 4th calipha wnt do anythin wthout a reason, he is a wali and as for me i dont doubt him.

repent, yes offcourse u can repent, But can only repent to ALLAH, if u have gone against his will, but if u have hurt a person and caused pain, unless that person forgives u, ALLAH wont. its aganist is Justice.

and for futher fact on jamal, i will inshallah provide more info for it, as i am rite now at college and getin late for class. JazakALLAH

Indeed, La qum deenu kum waliaDin...All Praises is for ALLAH!

1)
the clash never lead to a war..it was not even a clash as well..just a diff of opinions that was misusedand en mis represented. ..AND Hazrat Ayesha(RA) was on her way back from makkah not prepared or planning any war.

2) no comments. we both believe different things here.

When i said we need not join any army...my God brothers,...i was NOT refering to jihad ...i know its fard and all that. however ,jang-e-jamaal was never a jihad where you recruit armies and go fighting. it was an accidential war..Hazrat Ayesha or Hazrat Ali never recruited Armies. they were just some people comming back from makkah..on there way back. i think you need to re read the true history of matters.


About the facts:
i don't know what all this proves. please draw conclusions for me..All i know is that ALL companions of Prophet SAW were people worth zillion MEs. if they ever made a mistake( incidence of Ghazwa-e-tabouk e.g.), they repented with much love for Lord and were blessed even more and MORE. All i know is that i am ..or no one here for that matter...is worth playing jury to em for attending a funural...or not..or watever.

we are answerable to our deeds only. May we be good in em(amen)

all else can be "La qum deenu kum waliaDin"(for you is your deen, for me is my deen)

w.salam

1.none of them was against the other, ohh sister, Hazrat Ayesha come to the battle field in the battle of Jamal. Anyone who goes against a Calipha is wrong

2.Yazeed knew everthin, and if he didnt knew, the blame stills comes on him, cuz it was under his rule tat Imam Hussain ibn Ali(as) was killed and his tortured

3.U have to jion, Jihad is wajib on everyone. Thats Allahs Commnad, a base of Islam, Luving the Sahabas is NOT, u can choose not to jion the army, and have gunaah, for me, i shall do wht is commanded on me.


Info:

Hazrat Abu Bakr and Hzt. Omer, being so close to our Rasool, didnt even give Ghusl to his Holy Body. The rehmat of ALLAH to human kind has jst left us, and where were they ?

for the Nikah of Lady Umme Kulthum plz read this answering-ansar.org

Ibis is indeed dividin the ummah, but its us humans tat are givin him the chance.

Fact:
On the death of Bibi Fatimah Zahra as, the Beloved daughter of our beloved Rasool, None of the 3 caliphs were present, WHY ? Why is her grave not next to Rasool ?

Why was she forced to come to the court of Hzt Abu Bakr for the matter of Fidak? why wasnt she given her the rite ?

Fact: why did Imam Ali(as) the Gate of City of Knowledge, didnt support Hzt Abu bakr, and delayed it for 6months? After the death of his wife then only he become invovled wth the ummah ?

Fact:during the region of the first 3 caliph, Imam ALi(as) the Lion of Allah, the man who single handedly won Khaibar, was not invovled in any battles durin tat time ?

Fact: Why was Hazrat Omer was hand picked by Hazrat Abu bakr? Why was Hzt Usman selected by a council picked by Hzt.Omer ? Why change in policy ?

BellaDona

---Hazrat Ayesha had no mistaken issues with/about Hazrat Ali. It was a clash on principles AND hazrat Ali and she agreed on the Qasaas theory together.

The clash on principles was the mistaken issue I am talking about.

Yazeed never knew about the attack... he did two wrongs

To me, he did only one wrong: and that wrong was his kuffar in not submitting to the Imam-e-waqt, and opposing him. Whatever technical details are there, whether he knew it or not, is not important. He is squarely responsible for all that happened. Really feel sorry for the gentleman. What a loss....

brother we need not join anyone?s' army

You may be saying in a different sense, but it can be misunderstood. Why do we not need to join any armies.? Isn't jihad incumbent upon us, especially, when you are being led by the Imam-e-Waqt like Ali.

Thanks for the respectfull post bro...

One question: Would u love me if i hurt you father real bad ?

The son of Hazrat Abu Bakr Siddique became a muslim much later then him. He told later that Father, you came under my sword in the battle of badr, but I let you go. Abu Bakr said, Son, had you come under my sword, I swear I would have killed you. And yet, you can be perfectly sure, Abu Bakr would have cried real tears for his son, after killing him. Becaues he loved him.

Consider another case, in Surah Kahf. The case of Hazrat Musa and Hazrat Khizr. Moses was a Prophet, and its not possible for something wrong to happen and not oppose it. So when Khizr, outwardly acted like a terrorist, tearing down buildings, sinking ships, and killing children, Moses took issue with him, and opposed him. Yet, this Moses is the same person who had been looking for Khizr, had been told by God to seek khizr, and wanted to learn from khizr, and respected him, and loved him, as a special servant of God.

The only problem was, moses acted according to his Shariah, and his consience. Khizr acted with the Ilm-e-ladun, and possessed higher God-given wisdom which Moses did not have. They opposed, and they parted each other, yet, in the eyes of God, BOTH were right. Moses acted according to his understanding, and khizr, according to his superior understanding.

My understanding of the whole situation is similar. Talha, and Zubair, and Ayesha, were taught by the Prophet(sm) to fight for Haq, and so they fought for what "they considered haq". Like Moses, they did not know the superior, Ilme-ladun which Ali possessed, and how Ali was directed, and guided by Allah in a manner which they did not have any idea of. Its like a matric student not being able to understand and decide whether a PhD student is solving a problem correctly or not. Ali was right. Others, in their limited understanding, were wrong in their actions, but right in their intentions, just like Moses was wrong to oppose khizr, but right in his concience and intentions.

In such a case, you have a dispute, even a war, on principles, and both may be loved by Allah.

It happened with Sayyidi Hallaj Mansoor also. He asked his disciples whom do u think God loves more, me or the clerics opposing me. His disciples said, ofcourse you. But he replied, God is happy with them too, because they are implementing his Shariah, while I am breaking it. The story goes that after Hajjal's ashes were thrown in river Tigris, the river start flooding. They ran to tell Hazrat Shibli (or was it someone else forgetting his name). he came to the river bank said, Listen Mansoor. We know you were absolutely right in Tariqat, but do this only if what we have done is wrong in Shariat! At this, the flood subsided.

If someone would kill my father, I would not love that person because I am too weak. But like the companions of the Prophet(sm), there are people who will kill their own fathers if they stand in the way of Haqq.

Inspite of their war, it is not possible for me to believe that Ali can every hate a woman who has had a relation with the Prophet(sm) which the quran calls "they are your garments, and you are their garments". The Ali that I know and believe in loves Ayesha (rz). And the Abu Bakr and Umar I know of, loved Ali more then their own children.

brother WS:

i really like your point, however brother ..w.hen we have clashing "love light towers" ..we often end up having a misguided traffic ..or more confused crossroads.
your ideas to counter explain "one love" theory are remarkable.. nice to know ppl want to find some common ground and are working positively to reach em.
however i want to add just a tiny bit of something to it..

u said=> "Inspite of her being mistaken on a particular issue regarding Ali... "

---Hazrat Ayesha had no mistaken issues with/about Hazrat Ali. It was a clash on principles AND hazrat Ali and she agreed on the Qasaas theory together. What we know as a war between them was influence of outer forces...people from with in the groups who never wanted the matter to settle. those who wanted to save the killers of Hazrat Usman(RA)..when they saw em both getting together, they started a fight in dark hours. Neither Hazrat Ali nor Hazrat Ayesha ordered fires, as they call it in milt. terms. NONE OF EM WAS AGAINST THE OTHER>>>NO ONE WANTED A WAR. In fact Hazrat Ali always respected Hazrat Ayesha.

--> Yazeed never knew about the attack on hazrat Hussain(RA) till later ..The attack was not preplanned. I am not saying yazeed is all innocent, he did two wrongs (a) not demanding Qasas for murder of Hazrat hussain(RA)...(b) ---> the later attack in madina.

--> brother we need not join anyone?s' army.. just remember ..we are to believe Quran as the prime key. Quran talks praise of companions so we cant let any one play jury to ere cases.. they were self sufficient enuf to settle their disputes themselves. Right or wrong...let Allah decide that. ? However, for us.. we are to respect em all.. as Quran talks of em as "raziAllahuAnhu".. when Allah says HE loves em...no objections can be entertained.

its not about rationalizing whites and blacks.. its about faith...its about islam.
i am very much ok with shias if they respect my mothers(umhaatul momineen) ..ALL OF THEM. otherwise. like every person with geerah, i am very much touchy about my mothers.

AND just to add a lil info patch to this...do you know Hazrat Ali(RA) AND hazrat fatima(RA) 's daughter was married to Hazrat Umar (RA)? widow of Hazrat Abu Bakar(RA) married Hazrat ali(RA) AND hazrat hassan, hussain(RA) were guarding the gates of the doors to Hazrat usman(RA)'s house for whole 43 days of surrounding.

they had nothing against one another. its iblees making weird facts to divide ummah brother. we are magnifying moles to make mountains of contentions.(SIS SG..u can elaborate the facts and add references to them)

May Allah guide us all to unity (ameen)
Lots of prayers and brother do forgive me if anything I said makes you feel bad.
w.salam