points well made hassan and zz

I agree with hassanahmad. Hadith document the practices of the Prophet, and are meant to supplement the teachings of the Quran. Ofcourse there is the issue of fabricated hadith - this is where the individual has to practice due diligence.

You can't throw away all the hadith just because some are weak and some are fabricated. The entire science of hadith classification grew out of the perceived need to categorize the sunnah of the Prophet (SAW) in a logical system that could form a secondary canon of law. You need more than the Qur'an, just as this country needs more than the Constitution. The Qur'an does not tell us how to pray. It does not tell us the amount of zakat to give. It does not tell us exactly how to perform the Hajj. It is a more general book upon which the hadith are based. But throwing away all of the hadith is, quite simply, throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

RaterHater, out of all the fiqh classes I have taken, I have NEVER heard what you said. So if you have some proof , bring it forward. The 4 schools of thought do not mix with reasoning, they are based on the understand of the hadiths through the quran and sunnah. Bidaa can ONLY be done in acts of worships. Please explain who it is bidaa for it makes NO sense.

hey rater what verse are you referring to?

Okay you say this "I dont to like to mix my own reasoning with Islam, because Allah has said in the Quran, ther are somethings that you think are good for you but they are bad for you and there somethings you think are bad for you but are good for you....there are no Bida'as in the creed of Ahlus sunna Wal Jammah." What do you think of the 4 schools of law then, they were mixing their own reasoning and i consider that a bidaa of the ahlus sunna wal jammah.

Hadiths are not legends by the way, they are narrations by the companions of the Prophet(S) which are authentic.

Kingriz, I have a problem with that for one reason becuase it states in the Quran: Athi-ul-llah wa Athi-ur-Rasool. Means follow Allah and Follow the Rasool. In the tafseer this is important dialect used by Allah SWT. Allah could have simply said Athi-ul-llah wa Rasool (folllow Allah and his mesenger) but no, He chose to say "follow Allah and follow his messenger" to stress the fact that it is important to follow the sunnah of the prophet (S). I remember the shaykh teaching our class gave a BEAUTIFUL tafseer of this. I wish I had the memory to remember it all. I would write more but I am SLAMMED with work =(. Inshallah later on =)

Actually unless your argument is backed with the Quran, it is invalid in the eyes of Islam. The hadith are legends. stories, maybe even some of them are true. I dont know. The quran is all I need. "There is no sunnah but the Sunnah of Allah."

Rater Hater.... our ONLY source of guidance is the Quran and Sunnah. That is enough for me as Allah has said in the Quran. Rater hater, do you think your logic is greater than Allahs or the prophet (S)? I dont to like to mix my own reasoning with Islam, because Allah has said in the Quran, ther are somethings that you think are good for you but they are bad for you and there somethings you think are bad for you but are good for you. So I trust my creator to be only guidance, but I dont know about you based on your comments. The people who claim to be of the Ahlus Sunna Wal Jammah may practice bida'as but there are no Bida'as in the creed of Ahlus sunna Wal Jammah.

Why are you always quoting hadith? Cant we ever have a logical discussion? What is the point of hadith after hadith? You dont think Ahlus sunna wal jamah has many bidahs of its own?

Jihad in Islam is not "usually" done in self defense sister. It seems to me that you have taken the modernist approach in interpreting the Quran and Hadiths. According to Shaykh Ul Islam ibn Taymiyya also many modern day scholars such as Shaykh Abdullah Azzam, Jihad is of two categories. The first is offensive and second is defensive. I suggest you read more traditional sources. How conveniently your listed a few ayats pertaining to one side of jihad. The ayats for defensive jihad do not exceed more than 5 where there are at least 10 supporting the offensive as I will list here:

Therefore, when ye meet the Unbelievers (in fight), smite at their necks; At length, when ye have thoroughly subdued them, bind a bond firmly (on them): thereafter (is the time for) either generosity or ransom: Until the war lays down its burdens. Thus (are ye commanded): but if it had been Allah's Will, He could certainly have exacted retribution from them (Himself); but (He lets you fight) in order to test you, some with others. But those who are slain in the Way of Allah,- He will never let their deeds be lost. (47:4)


The number of months in the sight of Allah is twelve (in a year)- so ordained by Him the day He created the heavens and the earth; of them four are sacred: that is the straight usage. So wrong not yourselves therein, and fight the Pagans all together as they fight you all together. But know that Allah is with those who restrain themselves. (9:36)

And why should ye not fight in the cause of Allah and of those who, being weak, are ill-treated (and oppressed)?- Men, women, and children, whose cry is: "Our Lord! Rescue us from this town, whose people are oppressors; and raise for us from thee one who will protect; and raise for us from thee one who will help!" (4:75)

Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued (9:29)

"O ye who believe! What is the matter with you, that, when ye are asked to go forth in the cause of Allah, ye cling heavily to the earth? Do ye prefer the life of this world to the Hereafter? But little is the comfort of this life, as compared with the Hereafter. Unless ye go forth, He will punish you with a grievous penalty, and put others in your place; but Him ye would not harm in the least. For Allah hath power over all things. Unless ye go forth, He will punish you with a grievous penalty, and put others in your place; but Him ye would not harm in the least. For Allah hath power over all things,"(9:38-39)

"And when the sacred months are passed, kill those who join other gods with God wherever ye shall find them; and seize them, besiege them, and lay wait for them with every kind of ambush: but if they shall convert, and observe prayer, and pay the obligatory alms, then let them go their way, for God is gracious, merciful. (9:5)

"Make war upon such of those to whom the Scriptures have been given as believe not in God, or in the Last Day, and who forbid not that which God and His Apostle have forbidden, and who profess not the profession of the truth, until they pay tribute out of hand, and they be humbled. The Jews say, "Ezra is a son of God"; and the Christians say, "The Messiah is a son of God." Such the sayings in their mouths! They resemble the saying of the infidels of old! God do battle with them! How are they misguided? They take their teachers, and their monks, and the Messiah, son of Mary, for lords besides God, though bidden to worship one God only. There is no God but He! Far from His glory be what they associate with Him! Fain would they put out God's light with their mouths: but God only desireth to perfect His light, albeit the infidels abhor it. He it is who hath sent His Apostle with the guidance and a religion of the truth, that He may make it victorious over every other religion, albeit they who assign partners to God be averse from it. (9:30)


With those ayats listed and by their tafseer we see that jihad is also offensive so please do not try to over look that.

The second issues is tha hadith which you have brought forward. You must remember that Rasulullah (S) was talking to a woman and about HER duties which are different than of a mans. The exact hadith is: Narrated by Aisha (Radhiallaho anha): "(That she said) "O Allah's Messenger (sallallaahu 'alaihi wasallam)! We consider Jihad as the best deed. Should we not fight in Allah's cause?" He said, "The best Jihad for women is Hajj-mabrur (i.e. Hajj which is done according to the Prophet's tradition and is accepted by Allah)." Sahih Al-Bukhari Vol. 4 : No. 43. Sister please do not mis-write the hadiths. It is a grave sin to change the words of Rasulullah (S). Inshallah next time you will be more careful.


But now lets look at hadiths that stress the importance of jihad:

Narrated by Anas bin Malik (Radhiallaho anho):
Allah's Messenger (sallallaahu 'alaihi wasallam) said, "A single endeavor (of fighting) in Allah's cause in the forenoon or in the afternoon is better than
the world and whatever is in it."
Sahih Al-Bukhari Vol. 4 : No. 50

Narrated by Abu Huraira (Radhiallaho anho):
A man came to Allah's Messenger (sallallaahu 'alaihi wasallam) and said, "Instruct me as to such a deed as equals Jihad (in reward)." He replied, "I do not find such a deed." Then he added, "Can you, while the Muslim fighter is in the battlefield, enter your mosque to perform prayers without cease and fast and never break your fast?" The man said, "But who can do that?" Abu Huraira added, "The mujahid (i.e. Muslim fighter) is rewarded even for the footsteps of his horse while it wanders about (for grazing) tied in a long rope."
Sahih Al-Bukhari Vol. 4 : No. 44

Allah's Apostle was asked, "What is the best deed?" He replied, "To believe in Allah and His Apostle (Muhammad). The questioner then asked, "What is the next in goodness? He replied, "To participate in Jihad (religious fighting) in Allah's Cause." The questioner again asked, "What is the next (in goodness)?" He replied, "To perform Hajj (Pilgrimage to Mecca) 'Mubrur, (which is accepted by Allah and is performed with the intention of seeking Allah's pleasure only and not to show off and without committing a sin and in accordance with the traditions of the Prophet)." (Volume 1, Book 2, Number 25, Narrated Abu Huraira)

"The Prophet said, The person who participates in holy battles in Allah's cause and nothing compels him to do so except belief in Allah and his Apostles, will be recompensed by Allah either with a reward, or booty (if he survives) or will be admitted to Paradise (if he is killed in the battle as a martyr). Had I not found it difficult for my followers, then I would not remain behind any saiya going for Jihad and I would have loved to be martyred in Allah's cause and then made alive, and then martyred and then made alive, and then again martyred in His cause." Volume 1, Book 2, Number 35, Narrated Abu Huraira.

So here it is evident that the Jihad is of high status, and please keep in mind that Jihad is higher reward than hajj as stated in this hadith.

Foxglove, you ask why I discriminate against the jews and christians and kafirs? Well lets look at what the Quran says about Kafirs:

"Lo! those who disbelieve, among the People of the Scripture and the idolaters, will abide in fire of hell. They are the worst of created beings." (98:6)

"Unto Him is the return of all of you; it is a promise of Allah in truth. Lo! He produceth creation, then reproduceth it, that He may reward those who believe and do good works with equity; while, as for those who disbelieve, theirs will be a boiling drink and painful doom because they disbelieved." (10:5)

"And for those who disbelieve in their Lord there is the doom of hell, a hapless journey's end!" (67:6)

"They surely disbelieve who say: Lo! Allah is the Messiah, son of Mary. The Messiah (himself) said: O Children of Israel, worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord. Lo! whoso ascribeth partners unto Allah, for him Allah bath forbidden Paradise. His abode is the Fire. For evil-doers there will be no helpers. They surely disbelieve who say: Lo! Allah is the third of three; when there is no God save the One God. If they desist not from so saying a painful doom will fall on those of them who disbelieve." (5:72-73)

Clearly we can see that the Kafirs will go to hell and Allah SWT does not break promises. Now we have estblished the fact that kafirs will go to hell, lets look at taking kafirs as friends. The Quran says:

?And if any amongst you takes them (as Awliyaa? ), then surely, he is one of them. Verily, Allaah guides not those people who are the Zaalimoon (polytheists and wrongdoers and unjust)? (5:51)

"And had they believed in Allaah, and in the Prophet (Muhammad) and in what has been revealed to him, never would they have taken them (the disbelievers) as Awliyaa? (protectors and helpers); but many of them are the Faasiqoon (rebellious, disobedient to Allaah)? (5:80-81)

?O you who believe! Take not as friends the people who incurred the Wrath of Allaah (i.e. the Jews). Surely, they have despaired of (receiving any good in) the Hereafter, just as the disbelievers have despaired of those (buried) in graves (that they will not be resurrected on the Day of Resurrection)? (60:13)

?Let not the believers take the disbelievers as Awliyaa? (supporters, helpers) instead of the believers, and whoever does that, will never be helped by Allaah in any way, except if you indeed fear a danger from them? (3:28)

I could list many more ayats in the quran about not taking Kafirs as friends, but I hope you get the point by reading this. Please keep in mind, that this does not mean in any form that we mistreat them. Allah has also commanded us to be gentle with them if they do not transgress against us. Also even when dealing with them, we must maintain the proper respect.

Now comes the topic of sunni madhabs and other sects in Islam. First off, we must define what creates a sect. The only way a new sect can be born is when there is a difference in Aqeedah (creed). Other than that, there is really no way to label a group a sect. The sunni madhabs have different opinon in minor matters but not in major matters or principals and obviously not aqeedah. All the madhabs are still considered to be under the Ahlus Sunnah Wal Jammah. As far as Shias, the Ahlus sunnah wal jammah has a very different creed and according to the ahlus sunnah wal jamma beliefs, there are MANY innovations with in them (sorry not trying to sound mean, but I will not sugar coat my beliefs). There are many other groups that ahlus sunnah wal jammah doesnt take also such as ismailis, ahamdiyyas, tijannis, and etc. As far as talking against it and labeling groups for causing fitna. It is diffinitely our duty to protect Islam. I would post ayats and hadiths but I am sure your eyes are tired of reading (if you would like, let me know and I will post). So in protecting Islam we must enjoin the good and forbid the evil as the Quran states. So you will say how is this evil? Well since the Ahlus Sunna Wal Jammah considers these groups to have many bida'as and shirk they are evil because of a hadith by Rasulullah (S) that states:

"The best speech is that embodied in the Book of All?h, and the best guidance is the guidance given by Muhammad. The most evil affairs are their innovations; and every innovation is an error.? Narrated by Jabir ibn Abdullah (R). (Muslim 1885).

So for this we learn that EVERY bida'a is evil.

So now that we have established that bida'a is evil. What should a Muslim do when he encounters evil? Well according to the Rasulullah (S) when he said:

"Whosoever of you sees an evil action, let him change it with his hand; and if he is not able to do so, then with his tongue; and if he is not able to do so, then with his heart ? and that is the weakest of faith." (Bukhari)

So this means that it is the duty of every Muslim to correct evil when we see it. I think I have provided enough evidence to show that we must correct evil if we are backed by the Quran and Sunnah. IF something goes against what the prophet has said, than we MUST correct it

I think I have provided ENOUGH evidence here to show that ALL non-muslims are Kafirs, Why we deal with "sects" the way we do, and also about jihad. So Inshallah in light of this it will cause you to reflect a little abit on what you have said. If I have said anything good, it all comes from Allah, If I have done anything wrong (misquoted hadiths , my memory sometimes fails me) it is out of my own weakness and fault. May Allah SWT bless us all with high Iman and Jannah.

I hope naseeb approves this, if not I ll be mad! This took toooo long to type up! GRRRR lol.

The person posted this in the vibes section and mailed me this, so tonight I had some free time so I finally had the chance to get back to her. So now I am gonna post my response that I is "pending" on vibes to her.

Hey lets keep this down aand save it for the liberals. They are going to be swarming soon I know it. So save your bashing for them =)

LOL, well i just laugh like that to annoy the little insecure ladies tee he he ;D

raterhater ...when u typed in tee hee..makes me wonder if you got balls?

lol @ bitch basterdo lolllllllll

oh im sorry, i cant read what MissPee Pee le Peu said, tee he he :D

:( what i doooooo i was referring to BEACHHEAD, u insecure little lady :P

you know this person is sooo hurt..maybe this person should fix up his own communtiy then actively campaigned against bush and blair