Sorry corrections

I donthave to respond to this whole thing right now but ill be back .I just wanted to say I meant Kufr

Every Shirk is an act of Kufr, but Every act of Kufr is not shirk

Masha'Allah.

I just would like to add that when you use the station of the dead, it is not necessary that they hear you (although they can). It is not necessary because the dua is to Allah and He is hearing us and He grants the dua. It is not a condition of tawassul that you be heard by the person through whom you are interceding.

shirk is singular, and kuffar(disbelievers) is pleural for kafir. I don't know how u can equate those to words. Maybe u mean to say every mushrik is a kafir?

maybe u didn't pay attention to the hadith of the blind man. That hadith is accepted by salafis, and well i've cited 15 of the biggest huffaz (someone who has memorized 100,000 hadiths along with its chains) of the ummah.
so in that hadith the prophet peace be upon him told him to go make ablution and pray. The person left and then he made his du'a. The prophet (peace be upon him) was not present when he said "Ya muhammad ya Muhammad inna istashfa3 bik 3ala Rabbi fi rad busra"

now u are suggesting that the Prophet (peace be upon him) himself was teaching a sahabi how to perform SHIRK... u've made similar suggestions about Prophets in the past conceding to shirk in the ummah and Allah himself commanding angels to commit shirk...

1. do we agree that the person left and made his du'a in the prophet (salallahu alayhi wasallam)'s absense?

if the prophet taught something to the sahaba it remains for us to follow it too.
It is attributed to ?Abdull?h bin Mas??d that the Holy Prophet (s) is reported to have said:
My life is blissful for you because you hear traditions from people and relate them to others and my death is also blissful for you because your deeds will be presented to me. If I see the virtues prevail, I will be grateful to Allah, and if I see the vices prevail, I will pray for your forgiveness from Allah.

6. Haytham? transmitted it in Majma?-uz-zaw?id (9:24) and said that that tradition had been reported by Bazz?r (in his Musnad) and its sub-narrators are all of sah?h (sound) hadith. ?Ir?q? has confirmed the soundness of its transmission in his book Tarh-ut-tathr?b f? sharh-it-taqr?b (3:297). Ibn Sa?d has recorded it in at-Tabaq?t-ul-kubr? (2:194). Q?d? ?Iy?d has inscribed this tradition in ash-Shif? (1:19); and Suy?t?, recording it in al-Khas?is-ul-kubr? (2:281) and Man?hil-us-sif? f? takhr?j ah?d?th ash-Shif? (p.3), has commented that Ibn Ab? Us?mah in his Musnad has reproduced it through Bakr bin ?Abdull?h Muzan? and Bazz?r in his Musnad who have relied on its narration by ?Abdull?h bin Mas??d with a sound chain of transmission. It has been endorsed by Khaf?j? and Mull? ?Al? Q?r? in their commentaries on ash-Shif?, i.e. Nas?m-ur-riy?d (1:102) and Sharh ash-Shif? (1:36) respectively. Hadith-scholar Ibn-ul-Jawz? has reproduced it in al-Waf? bi-ahw?l-il-mustaf? (2:809-10) from Bakr bin ?Abdull?h and Anas bin M?lik. Subk? has copied this tradition in Shif?-us-siq?m f? ziy?rat khayr-il-an?m (p.34) from Bakr bin ?Abdull?h Muzan?, and Ibn ?Abd-ul-H?d? in as-S?rim-ul-munk? (p.266-7) has authenticated its veracity. Bazz?r?s tradition has also been recorded by Ibn Kath?r in al-Bid?yah wan-nih?yah (4:257). Ibn Hajar ?Asqal?n? narrated it through Bakr bin ?Abdull?h Muzan? in al-Mat?lib-ul-??liyah (4:22-3#3853). ?Al?-ud-D?n ?Al? copied Ibn Sa?d?s tradition in Kanz-ul-?umm?l (11:407#31903) and from H?rith (#31904). Nabh?n? related it in Hujjatull?h ?alal-??lam?n f? mu?jaz?t sayyid-il-mursal?n (p.713).

here is a basic break down...

EVERY shirk is kuffar

every Kuffar is NOT a shirk

Can we agree on this?

I have not used anything interchangebly. I still hold this argument

Tawassul through a LIVE person is allowed as long a you dont do it on his rank

Tawassul maybe shirk pending on how he does it. If a person sits in his house and says OH SO AND SO please make duaa and help me. This is shirk. Not because tth reason of asking for dua'a but because they believe that the person can HEAR them from ANYWHERE! you can not make tawassul with a Rasulullah from your house. You can not say oh rasullullah make dua'ah for us. Furthermore you can not use dead sufi shaykhs to this also. Becuase if a person does , he is ascribing the attribute of the "all hearing" to this person when it is ONE of Allah's attribute. This would be in violation of Tawheed Asma Wa Siffat.

Tawassual can also be a bida'a, whic is kuffar but not shirk. For example standing on top of a persons grave asking him to make dua'a for you. It is Bida'a because the Prophet never did this nor did any of the Sahabas. We all know the hadith of Rasulullah whihc he said at the end of each khutba.

".... wa kullah bida'atun dalalah, wa kullu dalaltan fil NAR"

Every innovations is a going astray and every going asrtray is in the hell fire.

Assalamu alaikum,

Given this is another ACTION, this falls under the category of fiqh...

Related by Tirmidhi:
(Transliteration)
Rawa atTirmidhi yasnadaho 3an 3uthman bin Hunayf ana rajulan 3ama ata alnabi sallalahu alayhi wa sallam faqal:
Innee asabtu fi busra fadi3 Allah lee. Qal ith-hab fatawada', wa salli rik3atayn thumma qul "Allahuma inni ass'aluka wa atawajuh ilayk binabiyyi Muhammad, nabi alrahma, ya Muhammad inna istashfa3 bik 3ala Rabbi fi rad busra"
thumma wal sallalahu alayhi wa sallam, wa 'in kanat 7ajah fafa3al mithlu thalik"

u really need to define shirk for us bro and how and if its different from haram... because we are having a hard time understanding you as you use those terms interchangeably

the blind man said "...allahumma inni atawajjaha ilayka bi nabiyyika nabiyyirrahma.." there is no (the du'a of) in there.

U ADDED IT !!

That is waht we are talking about Tawassul through a living person is okay..but with the intention that he make dua'a for you also. Becuase Rasulullah also said to the blind man after, made dua'a for me also.

Also there are conditions about tawassul. you can not say on the Right of Muhammad (S) or so and so becaue he is soo rightous, make dua'a for me. This is wrong. Becuaes you're implying that Allah owes somebody something naudubillah.

The blind mand said I trun to you through the du'a of your prophet and no by his rank. Also in the authentic hadith, RAsulullah ended the conversation by saying and you make dua'a for me.


The Tawassul that sufis do is shirk, becuse.

1. they do it at the grave of the dead
2. some of them "invoke" their grandshaykhs
3. They do it upon the ranks of people. (indirectly implying they have a certain right over Allah)


There are many other eexmaples I could give but this shoudl be enouhg. Nobody said there Tawassul is not allowed, but the tawassul that the sufis have claimed is not. As in ibadaa. there are ways to do it htat are halal and there are ways to do it that are shirk and bid'a. SAme applies for Tawassul.

Tawassul: The concept does not imply that the intermediary will grant the prayer or that he will pressurize God to grant the prayer of an individual or condone his sins. This is an egregious misconception, which haunts the minds of a number of people. In fact, the prayee believes that when he mediates his prayer through divinely blessed persons, after positing his own helplessness and after articulating the praise of God, Allah will fulfil his need as a token of courtesy to the intermediary. He does not even have the creeping notion that the intermediary is a partner in divinity. It is, therefore, vitally significant to grasp the reality of intermediation to obviate any misunderstanding, especially on the part of those who are prone to interpreting it in a characteristically un-Islamic sense.


ok so i read the article above and will mention some of my observations here.

1. we are in agreement that praying to anyone besides Allah is kufr. We are not encouraging praying to the Prophet (peace be upon him) as i just clarified. So lets not mention the idea of kufr cause we all pray to Allah.

2. we are in agreement that tawassul in principle is permissible, rather recommended

3. we are in agreement that tawassul throught the Prophet (peace be upon him) was permissible during his life time as mentioned in your article and as understood by the hadith of the blind man.

4. In the article above, why is the supplication taught by the prophet (peace be upon him) to the blind man ommitted from the tradition in the exact way it was taught. Why is it mearly summerized. For the sake of brevity? or for some other reason?

5. Here is the supplication:

"Oh Allah, I ask You and turn to You through my Prophet Muhammad,

the Prophet of mercy; Oh MUHAMMAD(Ya Muhammad), I seek your intercession with my Lord for the return of my eyesight ."

5. It is clear from your articles and my article that tawassul in principle is permissible. The issue of debate is wether we can continue to make tawassul through the prophet (peace be upon him) after he passed away.

So if we agree on the points mentioned above, then we can safely say that
1. tawassul is not shirk in principle
2. the issue of tawassul after the passing away of Prophet (peace be upon him) is one of permissibility/non-permissibility not wether its kufr or not.
3. if we agree on these points then i will move on to create another entry to discuss the PERMISSIBILITY of tawassul after his death not wether its shirk or not.

These are my notes from a class I took regarding this topic. Its a bit scattered but you can get the general proofs:

TAWASSUL





A Common Christian Prayer



?O Father who art in Heaven, I ask You by the rights of Jesus Christ


that you grant me salvation.




Linguistic Definition: That which brings you closer to another object.



Islaamic Definition: That which brings you closer to Allaah.



?O you who believe! Do your duty to Allaah and fear Him. Seek the means of approach unto Him, and strive with might and main in his cause so that you may prosper.?



General Tawassul: This refers to every good deed that brings you closer to Allaah. (Ex. Salaah, Du?aa?, etc.)
Specific Tawassul: This refers to ways to increase the chance of du?aa being accepted.



Types of Tawassul Sanctioned by the Sharee?ah:



? Asking using Allaah?s Names and Attribute:

Du?aa?s often begin using the word ?Rabb?. Allaah will answer your prayers because He is your Rabb. Anything you ask for would have a relevant Name. (Ex. If you ask for forgiveness you could call upon Al-Ghafoor, if you ask for sustenance call upon Ar-Razzaaq, a worldly matter call upon Al-Kareem etc.)

?The most beautiful names belong to Allaah, so call on him by them.?



? Tawassul through one?s state, past or present:

-Invoking pity through one?s sad state. (Think of how people mention they are ?veterans? or ?homeless?.)

?He (Moosaa) watered (their flocks) for them, then turned to the shade, saying, ?My Lord, whatever provision you send to me, I am in dire need for it.?" (Faqeer- poor, beggar, have nothing)

?He said: My Lord! Surely my bones are weakened and my hair is aflame with gray. As I implore You, my Lord, I never despair.?

(Note faith in Allaah?s response: You?ve always answered my du?aa?s previously, so grant me this as well.)

? Tawassul through one?s good deeds:

?Once three persons (from the previous nations) were traveling, and suddenly it started raining and they took shelter in a cave. The entrance of the cave got closed while they were inside. They said to each other, O you! Nothing can save you except the truth, so each of you should ask All?hs help by referring to such a deed as he thinks he did sincerely (i.e. just for gaining All?hs pleasure). So one of them said, O All?h! You know that I had a laborer who worked for me for one Faraq (i.e. three Saa?s) of rice, but he departed, leaving it (i.e. his wages). I sowed that Faraq of rice and with its yield I bought cows (for him). Later on when he came to me asking for his wages, I said (to him), Go to those cows and drive them away. He said to me, But you have to pay me only a Faraq of rice, I said to him, Go to those cows and take them, for they are the product of that Faraq (of rice). So he drove them. O All?h! If you consider that I did that for fear of You, then please remove the rock. The rock shifted a bit from the mouth of the cave. The second one said, O All?h, You know that I had old parents whom I used to provide with the milk of my sheep every night. One night I was delayed and when I came, they had slept, while my wife and children were crying with hunger. I used not to let them (i.e. my family) drink unless my parents had drunk first. So I disliked to wake them up and also disliked that they should sleep without drinking it, I kept on waiting (for them to wake) till it dawned. O All?h! If You consider that I did that for fear of you, then please remove the rock. So the rock shifted and they could see the sky through it. The (third) one said, O All?h! You know that I had a cousin (i.e. my paternal uncle?s daughter) who was most beloved to me and I sought to seduce her, but she refused, unless I paid her one-hundred Deenars (i.e. gold pieces). So I collected the amount and brought it to her, and she allowed me to sleep with her. But when I sat between her legs, she said, Be afraid of All?h, and do not deflower me but legally. I got up and left the hundred Deenars (for her). O All?h! If You consider that I did that for fear of you then please remove the rock. So All?h saved them and they came out (of the cave).?



?Our Lord! We have heard the call of one calling (us) to Faith, `Believe you in the Lord, and we have believed. Our Lord! Forgive us our sins, blot out from us our iniquities??

There are numerous aayaat in the Qur?aan which mention the Mu?minoon making tawassul in their du?aa? through their Eemaan.



? Tawassul through the du?aa? of a living person:

This form of tawassul is allowed? however, it goes against the perfection of tawheed.

An unfortunately common scenario: Many people ask others to make du?aa? for them when they are not even making it themselves.

?On a Friday, a person entered the main Mosque through the gate facing the pulpit while All?hs Messenger was delivering the Khutbah. The man stood in front of All?hs Messenger and said, O All?hs Messenger! The livestock are dying and the roads are cut off; so please pray to All?h for rain. Anas said, ?All?hs Messenger raised both his hands and said, ?O All?h! Bless us with rain! O All?h! Bless us with rain! O All?h! Bless us with rain!? Anas added, ?By All?h, we could not see any trace of cloud in the sky and there was no building or a house between us and (the mountains of) Sila.? Anas added, ?A heavy cloud like a shield appeared from behind it (i.e. Sila Mountain). When it came in the middle of the sky, it spread and then rained. And the Prophet went down with his beard wet.?



Tawassul Through the Rank of Prophet Muhammad (SAS)



This form of tawassul is an innovation. However, many claim that it is permissible. These are their evidences with the refutation of each.


----------------------------------- -----------------------------------


Whenever someone quotes evidence, we must ask ourselves three questions before we accept it:

1-Is this evidence legitimate? Is it from the Qur?aan, authentic Hadeeth, or Ijmaa? of the sahaabah?

Note:

For matters of ?Aqeedah; the solitary opinion of a sahaabee is considered proof.

For matters of Fiqh; the solitary opinion of a sahaabee is not enough.


2-Is it relevant?

3-Are there OTHER relevant evidences that have been left unquoted that would clarify ruling?

Note:

Ahlus-Sunnah Wal-Jamaa?ah combine all texts/evidences. They do not build rulings on one or two evidences while ignoring the others.

----------------------------------- ----------------------------------- -


Evidence One: General Aayah in Al-Maa?idah

?O you who believe! Fear Allaah and seek the means of approach (waseelah) unto Him and strive in His way that you may prosper.?

This proof is very general. It is not relevant.

Evidence Two: Hadeeth of the Blind Man

Once a blind person came to Rasulullah and said, 'Oh Rasulullah ! Ask Allah to cure me.' Rasulullah replied, 'If you wish I will make Du'aa or else you may be patient and this is better for you.' The man said, 'Make Du'aa? instead', Rasulullah then commanded him to make Wudhoo? properly and that he recites the following Du'aa, 'Oh Allah, verily, I ask of you and I turn to you through your prophet, the prophet of mercy, O Muhammad , verily, I have turned to my Lord through you so that my need be fulfilled. Oh Allah, accept his intercession on my behalf and my intercession on his behalf.'

This evidence is also irrelevant. It refers to tawassul through the du?aa? of the Prophet (SAS); not his rank or status. The man asked that Allaah accept the Prophet?s (SAS) on his behalf, to cure his blindness. He also asked Allaah to accept his own du?aa? that Allaah accept the du?aa? of the Prophet (SAS). If it was rank that was being referred to and not du?aa; the words ?my intercession? would be problematic.

What is meant is? ?I turn to you through (the du?aa?) of your Prophet?. How can we tell?

? The man came to ask for DU?AA?.

? The Prophet (SAS) agreed to make DU?AA?.

? The end of the hadeeth with the words ?my intercession?.

? There is no authentic report that any of the companions made tawassul through the rank of the Prophet (SAS). The story of ?Uthmaan narrated by At-Tabaraanee is not authentic.

Evidence Three: Story of ?Umar during Year of Drought

When the rain was withheld at the time of ?Umar bin Al-Khattaab, he went to call All?h for blessing of rain. In fact, he said, ?O All?h, we used to let the Prophet intercede for us to bless us with rain, but now, , we ask your Prophet?s uncle Al-Abbaas bin Abdul-Muttalib to do that. Then Al-Abbaas rose up and began to call All?h for rain.

This evidence is actually one of the strongest AGAINST the claim that these types of tawassul are permissible. ?Umar (RA) did not make tawassul through the Prophet after his death, rather through Al-?Abbaas? Why did he leave tawassul through the Prophet (SAS)? If it was rank being referred to, would the rank of Al-?Abbaas measure to that of the Prophet (SAS)? What is meant is tawassul through DU?AA?. Also note that ?Umar left tawassul through the du?aa? of the Prophet (SAS) after his death and instead made tawassul through the du?aa of his uncle who was living. People were dying. In such cases, one may look for someone whose du?aa? is most probable to acceptance.

Evidence Four: Various Weak or Fabricated Narrations

Some examples are:

?Make tawassul through my honor/rank.?

The person then went to Uthmaan ibn Affaan who then immediately fulfilled his need and told him to return whenever he had any need in the future.

When a person leaves the Masjid, the following du'aa is recorded, ?Oh Allaah, I ask you through the right of those who ask you and through the right of the act of my walking??

'When Adam ate from the forbidden tree, he said, 'O My Lord, I ask you through the right of Muhammad that you forgive me.'(al-Mustadrak vol.2 pg.615; Dalaa?ilun-Nubuwwah of Al-Bayhaqee vol.5 pg.489; al-Mu'jamus Sagheer of Imaam Tabrani vol.2 pg.82)



Evidence Five: Tawassul through Prophets Allowed on Day of Resurrection

Allah will gather all the human being of early generations as well as late generation on one plain so that the announcer will be able to make them all-hear his voice and the watcher will be able to see all of them. The sun will come so close to the people that they will suffer such distress and trouble as they will not be able to bear or stand. Then the people will say, 'Don't you see to what state you have reached? Won't you look for someone who can intercede for you with your Lord' Some people will say to some others, 'Go to Adam.' So they will go to Adam and say to him. 'You are the father of mankind; Allaah created you with His Own Hand, and breathed into you of His Spirit (meaning the spirit which he created for you); and ordered the angels to prostrate before you; so (please) intercede for us with your Lord. Don't you see in what state we are? Don't you see what condition we have reached?' Adam will say, 'Today my Lord has become angry as He has never become before, nor will ever become thereafter. He forbade me (to eat of the fruit of) the tree, but I disobeyed Him. Myself! Myself! Myself! (has more need for intercession). Go to someone else; go to Noah.' So they will go to Noah and say (to him), 'O Noah! You are the first (of Allah's Messengers) to the people of the earth, and Allaah has named you a thankful slave; please intercede for us with your Lord. Don't you see in what state we are?' He will say.' Today my Lord has become angry as He has never become nor will ever become thereafter. I had (in the world) the right to make one definitely accepted invocation, and I made it against my nation. Myself! Myself! Myself! Go to someone else; go to Abraham.' They will go to Abraham and say, 'O Abraham! You are Allaah's Apostle and His Khaleel from among the people of the earth; so please intercede for us with your Lord. Don't you see in what state we are?' He will say to them, 'My Lord has today become angry as He has never become before, nor will ever become thereafter. I had told three lies (Abu Haiyan (the sub-narrator) mentioned them in the Hadeeth) Myself! Myself! Myself! Go to someone else; go to Moses.' The people will then go to Moses and say, 'O Moses! You are Allaah's Apostle and Allaah gave you superiority above the others with this message and with His direct Talk to you; (please) intercede for us with your Lord, Don't you see in what state we are?' Moses will say, 'My Lord has today become angry as He has never become before, nor will become thereafter, I killed a person whom I had not been ordered to kill. Myself! Myself! Myself! Go to someone else; go to Jesus.' So they will go to Jesus and say, 'O Jesus! You are Allaah's Apostle and His Word which He sent to Mary, and a superior soul created by Him, and you talked to the people while still young in the cradle. Please intercede for us with your Lord. Don't you see in what state we are?' Jesus will say. 'My Lord has today become angry as He has never become before nor will ever become thereafter. Jesus will not mention any sin, but will say, 'Myself! Myself! Myself! Go to someone else; go to Muhammad.' So they will come to me and say, 'O Muhammad! You are Allah's Apostle and the last of the prophets, and Allah forgave your early and late sins. (Please) intercede for us with your Lord. Don't you see in what state we are?" The Prophet added, "Then I will go beneath Allah's Throne and fall in prostration before my Lord. And then Allah will guide me to such praises and glorification to Him as He has never guided anybody else before me. Then it will be said, 'O Muhammad Raise your head. Ask, and it will be granted. Intercede It (your intercession) will be accepted.' So I will raise my head and Say, 'My followers, O my Lord! My followers, O my Lord'. It will be said, 'O Muhammad! Let those of your followers who have no accounts, enter through such a gate of the gates of Paradise as lies on the right; and they will share the other gates with the people."??????

The Prophets are living but they are not part of this WORLDLY life.

There are several stages of ?life? or connection of soul to body. One may only make tawassul through the du?aa? of someone who is in the same category. There can be no communication between different ?dimensions?.

-The soul is blown into the body. -There is a strong connection between soul and body from the time the child is born until it dies (while awake). -This connection is weaker while a person is asleep. Souls are partially detached at this time. -Another state of weaker connection is that of AlBarzakh. This occurs from death to the Day of Judgement. -On the Day of Resurrection, people?s souls and bodies will be combined and connected the most complete and perfect connection. The soul will never again leave the body, not even in part.

None of the companions ever came to the Prophet?s (SAS) grave and asked him anything. Why not?????

Evidence Six: Quotes of Famous Scholars.

We do not base our ?aqeedah, our religion on people. Everyone is correct at times and makes mistakes at others. Ibn Taymiyyah states that it is not his right to disseminate a ?aqeedah, rather it is only Allaah?s right. Our judge and reference is the Qur?aan and Sunnah.

----------------------------------

Logically, tawassul through the rank of the Prophet (SAS) for Allaah to accept your du?aa? does not make sense because the rank of the Prophet (SAS) is not related to you. It is similar to asking a king to give you something because he loves his son. What have you done to earn a more acceptable du?aa?? How could one benefit from the good of another person?