I'm unable to read all comments or respond to everything, but the Tabbara brother commented on something I said, so I say:

I'm really not aware of that shaikh 'editing' his work so often like u said. u have to be accurate when u talk, brother. there are many such works as his, all in a way rely on the number 19. there is even an entire website on such numerical 'miracles', alargam.com

i know maybe 3 or more other works on when Israel will be destroyed, the other being saudi shaikh's Day of Wrath >>> www.islaam.com

just a side question, r u in anyway '7abashi' ???

atabarra, you keep thinking of a genera khalifa as something bad, chill man. Geez, if it was so horrible then as soon as the Prophet s.a.w passed away everything should have broken to bits. It was a pretty massive area of muslims by that time. Like I said, we'll agree to disagree, because I truly don;t see your view on that one.

What percentage is sufferring?...when during Sayyidna Omar's (r.a.) khilafa ONE woman was badly treated, he threatened to send an army from his place all the way to the other palace of the country where this happened if there was no action in good faith to fix the problem.

Now it seems that if in your mind, a small percentage get raped, massacred, killed by the bunches, blown up, etc...we should just say "oh well?" and live as if it's not happening? and if everyone is like that, then who WILL help those poor souls. Allah said to ask him for help and he would send it, butthat doesn't mean that everyone else should be passive. I strongly believe we will be liable on the day of judgement for the suffering. We live in this world in a time of hard times, can we help?...are we doing everything within our power to stop or at least minimize the damage?...Ask yourself that. If you are, then maybe you're feeling with those people. But if I say...ahhh well just enjoy life, and forget the suffering, because it's a small percentage, what kind of a person does that truly make me?

on Riddah, by Palestinian shaikh living in al-Quds, Bassam Jarrar >>> www.islamnoon.com

He's also the one with the most famous Quranic 'numerical study / miracle(?)' on the year Israel will be destroyed.

the above treatise is only in Arabic.

Atabbara,

you're going extreme on me in the other direction man. I never said it is all ad. But seriously, in my humble opinion, when the bad things in this world outweigh the good, then we're in trouble. and I honestly feel right now, unless you are disregarding all the massacres and killings everywhere on muslims AND nonmuslims. If you think whatever good there is in this world is outweighing all these killings, then you're not paying close attention to everything around you.

you know the hadith that is in the meaning of "killing one soul, is like killing the whole humanity in it's entirety, and saving one soul is like saving humanity in its entirety.

It tells you that we are definitely in bad times. Did I say I don't thank God for our blessings?...absolutely not! I do thank Allah and feel actually guilty about the priveliges I have when others are suffering and dying. hence, I try to help in any way I can to those people.

Point is, you can thank God and you HAVe to for ALL the great things YOU and some others have in life, but at the same time, you can't be passive and think "what's out of sight is out of mind" type of thing. If you lived in the occupied land right now you wouldn't be saying the same thing.

About the khalifa, the pope may actually be the absolute worst comparison to make to. You think that's the type of khalifa I'm looking at or talking about?...come on man, seriously. Someone is a strong figure and has a government that outright and openly GOVERNS (hence government) and has ultimate control on everything. You say it's impossible, I say it's not. guess we'll have to agree to disagree on that one.

And about Imam Ali, glad we at least agree on one thing and that you didn't mean the issues being with him personally.

Atabbara,

" You sound like an evangelical Muslim Don't be so pessimistic. Yes we can have a decent life even if the end times are not upon us

And you talk about me making assumptions. One, sorry if to you anyone who wishes we would be prosperous as we were before sounds like an "evangelical" muslim. And there is a fine line between pessimism and reality in this day and age and the way this world is turning. When the Prophet s.a.w. said that the umma would see some of the worst times, is it because he was evangelical and pessimistic in your humble opinion? Just curious.

Point is, reality says until the big signs happen, we will be in a bit of a rut, unless of course in your opinion, this lifestyle is perfectly fine for everyone seeing all the damage being done worldwide. then that's a different story.


This is not my argument, this is the scholars' argument. Even 1000 years ago some realized that when Muslims live very far distances they need to have different leaders. It is not physically possible to have "one" leader.

Read my comments below, a khalifa does not need to be everywhere when he has governors. Are you reading everything I type or are you selecting just the things that would appeal to your arguement Atabbara. "Iqra".

And, actually, sometimes when someone says something, they should measure their words, or make sure it is clear. With that only statement that you made, about Sayyidna Ali (RA) having his issues. I'm not sure why you picked that in specific or what your point actually was, it wasn't him that had the issues it was the umma and issues around him that were troubling. At least I am thinking that's what you meant.

Keeper,

I do not see why you keep a discussion with someone who mentions that even Ali (RA) had his issues. There is no point of discussion there. As Islam orders us, just say Peace and close the discussion, believe me it is not worth it.

And no, don't worry yourself, I don't consider OBL to be anything but a disgrace for this umma.

1) who said anybody will be a perfect khalifa? I never did.

2) Yes, the mahdi will be a VERY special case...and we may not see the light until he comes And Issa (A.S.) comes back to earth. But your arguement is that one ruler cannot handle the umma, my arguement is it IS physically possible unlike your arguement, because if one incompetent ruler like the one controlling the country you live right now can be there for this long, then you can have one decent person holding the fort over a big number of people. (this is hypothetically speaking of course). We all know though that our umma has a long way to go before we even try to start getting together, basically within ourselves we cannot even agree with family members, let alone village members, so to talk on a national and international level of alliances in this day and age isn't realistic under the CURRENT circumstances. But can it happen?....if enough people smarten up, I wouldn't rule it out.

3) As for the islamic conferwence being "one khalifa", I don't see yoyur point. You need a head figure, governing people, not beringing people together for lectures once a year. So I can't make any sense of your point there.

I disagree about one khalifa not being able to lead all muslims. Then what is the idea that al Mahdi will come and lead all muslims. He won't only lead the muslim army to defeat the enemy. But he will be the new khalifa who everyone will listen to.

If Bush can be president on 220 million people, then we can have a competent and God fearing khalifa on five times as much people. do you see the point?....you're assuming a khalifa will rule EVERYTHING. That's not necessarily the decision of the khalifa. when Omar Ibn El khattab was the khalifa he didn't make decisions for every single person in every country. He had governors on each country and they could make their own judgements or deicisions based on hadiths and the quran and sunna, and if they had doubt they would go to him. So that arguement is null.

A khalifa is an overall leader, not one that would govern every area of the world. That's my point.

Also, I believe Alia didn't mean revolutionize by force and toppling every government. It is obvious the Prophet's hadith that even when you have an oppressive government, you must go according to the laws of their country until better people replace them (and that not being by revolution and wreaking havoc).

On another note, yes we do have this problem where we don't trust muftis and higher more qualified people in the umma to give us the proper advice. Outr people are very critical and quick to put down someone who has dedicated his life to studying classic arabic, shari'a and specialized in his studies in one field to be an expert at it. Some joe blow from the street these days will just say about such a person "this guy is a zindeeq, or he knows nothing, or he's a kafir for this fatwa".....it's a depressing state of affair really. We have so many "sheikhs" now but so little people with true knowledge in ratio.

Attabara, we are now in the comfortable zone of respectfully disagreeing with one another :) When I refer to revolution, I'm referring to a revolution of scholarly thinking. We have become stagnant in matters of theology and have failed to create a more uniform standard for the dissemination of religious guidance. The fall of the khalifa has so completely decentralized Islamic scholarship and jurisprudance, empowering the corner cleric and his mob. Who is left to challenge them? Many people assume that the guy with the long beard/thaub/thazbee can't be challenged. They forget that even Rasullah (S) was asked to explain, clarify, and (at times) to implore Allah (SWT) to change the existing rules.

And yet, I agree with you on all of your other points, especially that ignorance of our religion by the average Joe is the root of the problem. I didn't mean to imply that only educated people should learn more about Islam. What I am trying to convey is the sense that all people are capable of critical thought and that as a generation, we have more access to information and thus a greater responsibility for itijihad.

The importance of Muslims accepting individual responsibility for scrutinizing what the imams/mullahs/sheiks purport to be Islam has never been more critical. It is our laziness that has allowed perverted interpretations to go unchallenged for so long that it can be foisted off as scholarship, IMHO. We have faster and greater access to Islamic information than any previous generation of muslims. Many of us are well-educated. Assuming that our brains do not shut off when the topic is Islam, why can we not apply critical thought to the interpretation of Quran and hadith. I'm not suggesting that an internet search will make you a scholar, but it may lead you to question "scholars" in a manner that fuels the critical thought necessary to revolutionize this ummah, wa Allahu Alim.

plus, only in an islamic state they can make a judgement about killing a murtad. As far as I know, there is no true islamic state in existence today. just a bunch of pretenders.

SubhanALlah.. we keep on getting challenged as Muslims day after day on the international level. I believe ALlah is allowing such things to happen for us to get our act together and wake up. Extremism and the lack of tolerance in the Muslim world are rampant, and people think the stricter they are the closest they must be to the truth but that shouldn't be the norm for Islam as if he had to chose between options the prophet Pbuh always chose the easiest unless it's a sin. What the Afghani clerics did just damaged the Muslim reputation further, and would definitely discourage people who are considering Islam to actually convert to it. I'm not calling for Muslims to be loose in how they apply Islam however we should use wisdom.

It is very interesting to note that the penalty for apostasy is not mentionned in the Qur'an, it's only in hadiths and traditions.

Atabbara: "There is a lot of room to work with in Shariah if people reduce their appetite for killing. "

Absolutely agree with you!!! (and, really, how often does that happen? ;))

Apostasy in Islam is not a Black or White matter like some people wish to imply. Scholars differ about it, but the death penalty for apostates applies in specific conditions especially when treason to the Islamic State exists. Interestingly enough, treason in the US is punished by the death penalty as well.

Some References: islamonline.net
www.islamonline.net cid=1119503544134
www.islamonline.net cid=1119503547720
www.qaradawi.net item_no=4231& version=1& template_id=130& parent_id=17

more >>> www.saaid.net

this is an arabic islamic page on al-riddah (apostasy) >>> www.islamadvice.com

This is really interesting! The question of "Murtad" in Islam.

But the more important question is for the second generation "muslims" who choose not to take the religion of thier parents, what do we do with them, for example in the U.S.?

I don't think any religion asks to kill. He didn't commit a crime as long as he doesn't join an army that fights Muslims then he is granted freedom " 7ureyat Al-3aqeda" " Al-Insan Mu5aer la musaer".
Allah 3alim!

this is pathetic...the religion makes it clear.