Due to recent events in Pakistan, I'm precoccupied so we will have to continue our feud later, but I will reply to all your statements.

Due to recent events in Pakistan, I'm precoccupied so we will have to continue our feud later, but I will reply to all your statements.

last thing. I used the example of slaughtering of animals to refute your statement that it's barbaric to follow a sunnah cause infants are hurt that way (Sunnah is a wish of Allah too because not believing in Sunnah is like not believing in Quran where it says to beleive in Sunnah). Cause slaughtering of animals should be even more barbaric. Just because they are not humans, and can't speak, and are not our kids, should we kill them to obey Allah.

Even if we say, for instance, during Hajj time. Still, do they not feel the pain during that time when they are slaughtered? perhaps it doesn't matter since they are dead, and can't complain, eh?

oh by the way, you should fix your post after I posted you the fact about Prophet Muhammad swas and his getting circumcised on the 7th day of his birth.

i will sure continue to post in response to your 'immature' posts, don't worry:P

kidding aside, let me say few things as i'm hard pressed on time right now. but after this weekend, i will do my research (read opposing views, etc) i'A to see if getting circumcision posses any risks for the infants.

Anyhow, if a hadith is contradictory with Quran, then we absolutely have to disregard it. But if it's not the case, and a hadith is suplementing Quran, then we have to take it.

One question. how do you pray? I suppose just the dikhr should be enough because Allah didn't go in detail about how one should perform prayers in Quran. How about Hajj? Zakat? the rules are there in Quran about matters that were new or needed to be re-stated clearly. Rest we have to take from Sunnah. Hadiths are simply driven from Sunnah. If you have read Quran with translation, then you must know that ALlah has strictly ordered muslims to follow Prophet swas. Did He not?
Why do that, when we have an absolute book from Allah Himself? perhaps is it because it was not necessary to define basic living laws in Quran, Allah sent a messenger, a living example, to do that, did He not?
What's the purpose of Prophet Muhammad SWAS? So that he could be the guidance to muslims as to how to live their lives according to Allah's wishes. Otherwise, it wouldn't have been hard for Allah to sent Gabriel in his true form, and have him recite Quran, and have a fearful person write it down. That miracle would have had the same impact perhaps more to get few people believing. I think there is a pretty simple reason behind the existence of Prophet MUhammad swas. i.e. Preach the message of God, and show the example by living own life like how God wanted for all the muslims.


Now, you must provide very solid backing to your outrageous claim that Slaughtering of Animals is only Fard during Hajj. Just because the Surah is named Hajj has no correlation with it. I can quote you the whole Surah and I've read it with meaning, and it provides clear guidance to muslims what to do and what not to, and it talks of slaughtering of animals in the name of Allah.

Now one final thing. trimming of moustache is so about cleanliness. hahaha. you don't have one, so you don't know. hahaha. Sorry. Have you seen a person with big moustache eating? the food gets there, and it's hard to clean later. ewwwww. yuck. i can't believe people still have huge mustaches, they look disgusting when they eat anything (most do). The Sunnah is also to groom the beard as you should never look deshelved. One must look neat and groomed in Islam if one is to follow the Sunnah (the right approved way of Allah swat)
it is a wajib Sunnah between.

Anyhow, somehow I found your views pretty uneducated, no offense. You need to talk with proofs and have a debate then I promise I'll be more reasonable and respetful. I don't mind being shot down by valid arguments, so go ahead. I don't want to follow Islam blindly, I want to follow it the right way. But, i'm sure if you think i'm not up for the challenge, then there would be plenty others who would be. So I hope you start quoting text to prove your points, or you would be playing with my chords like there is no such thing as classical music. please, reham. (H)

Qrizwan,

You are right I have read Islamic history but not in great detail and i dont find the study of history and practicing religion to be the same thing. On the day of judgement I will be asked did I read Quran and understand it, not whether I read the book of bukhari hadith or not. You and I will usually be on opposite sides of the divide because I find any hadith which has no back up in the Quran to be invalid whether it is sourced from Bukhari or Muslim it does not matter. I'm not part of any cult, I once believed in hadith but after studying the Quran for many years I have found too many contradictions between Quran and hadith. To have a discussion with you on this subject on equal levels you would have had to have read the Quran translation in entirety as well as substantial amounts of hadith as well as the bible and torah. I find a lot of the hadith are word for word sayings out of the bible and torah, and some things between the old scriptures and Quran are the same and some contradictory. We know the Quran came into being because the old scriptures were tampered with.An example is Prophet Ibrahim telling people his wife was his mother. Another example would be the story of Adam and Eve, the Quran relates that Satan tempted them both "both" is used whereas the hadith relates the Christian version where Eve is tempted, she persuades Adam, hence woman is "fitna" and punished with pains of childbirth. So this is one example and there are more.

And while we are on this subject of animal slaughter the only time it is a farz is during Hajj for those actually doing Hajj. The mass slaughter at Eid is not a farz on muslims, that money is better spent on charity rather than slaughtering animals and eating them ourselves or exchanging meat with neighbors.

Also Allah has precribed the important policies about cleanliness in the Quran which may not be akin to common sense, ie bath after intercourse and no intercourse during mentsrutuation and I'm sure Allah was not short of words to extend the rules to nailcutting and circumcision. I don't source the rules you just provided to the prophet. these things remind me of hinduism, if you read the dharmashastras you would find such similar micromanagement. The Prophet does not need to tell us to cut nails, this is just common sense, for which we have brains to figure out. why then did the Proophet not mention cleaning with water in the toilet. Isnt that the MOST important thing in contrast to clipping nails and moustache??? Pretty soon we will be making a religious issue out of what to do with the fly in our soup. Anyway my way of thinking is a bit radical for mainstream muslims but these are the grounds on which I base my arguments and you will have to deal with all kinds of viewpoints in this community.

UTI infections can be prevented with cleaning beneath the foreskin. By the way circumcised and married men get them all the time, no big deal. Did you even try to read any viewpoints of physicians who oppose circumcision. If you just read the views of people who support your view, whats the point? Doctors dont agree about everything take a very simple example of me getting my tonsils out. I had two very different opionions from many physicians and contradictory research as well.What research you are quoting may not be conclusive. Generally research is done in the west on men who do not use water as part of their toilet hygeine. what if the research was done on men who did, do you think maybe the results would be different.

And what is the basis for you saying that circumcised grownups would not be able to urinate and be incapacitated for months. Sounds incredible! I had a discussion with some docs about this but such complications were not brought up. Let me ask a physician again and get back to you again on that one!

You can put a baby under the worst of pain and they will not remember, that is no reason to make them suffer then and there.

By the way how is clipping a moustache akin to cleanliness? Hair can breed germs in the pubic areas yes, but in the moustache you either have one or you don't, trimming can make it neat but what is the connection to cleanliness? Also many muslims practice the "sunnat" of not having a moustache at all but having an untrimmed beard. Check out a photo of extremely orthodox jews, same getup.

Ok this is getting long so finally you dont need to apologise for being enthusiastic and disagreeing with me. The point of all this is to test my convictions with some opposition and I will influence some people and offend others. So I hope you will continue to comment in the future on my "immature" posts.

There are many medical benefits associated with circumcision, and I just don't wanna get in to this debate because the facts are readily available online.

it has been proved that circumcision (especially during the first five years of life) also reduces the incidence of penile cancer.

an excerpt from fatwah.net "From a two-part study involving cohorts of 3,924 and 422,328 infants respectively Wiswell and Roscelli found a higher rate of urinary tract infection in uncircumcised compared with male circumcised infants."

there are just too many facts that clearly establishes how necessary it is for males to have circumcision done, as it's for their own benefits. and it should be done early if it could be to save infants from early health risks.

Also, infants may cry, but they would cry even harder if you leave them alone. infants can't communite through words, and all they have is that voice, and the intensity of it establishes if they are sad, angry, hurt, etc.
But, would you rather make an adult incapacitated for months (impossible to urinate, etc) after he gets circumcised, or rather when he was so small that he didn't feel as much pain as a cry would make you believe (yes i love kids to death, but since it's for their own benefits, I would have it done as they would thank me later. ask any one who got circumcised when he was born, and if he complains, then let me know...)
my cousin got circumcised when i was present, and when the nurse handed him back to him mum, he wasn't even crying. he was sleeping like a baby. he did moan when urinated for some days (and yes why put the kid through that), but isn't it better that he wasn't infected with some disease because germs got in under his foreskin? anyhow, provide with proofs, or your argument doesn't hold water. (and yes it strikes a chord, in fact two chords:)

and the healing process of an infant is much much faster than when the infant grows to become older and older. a typical infant can recover from circumcision within weeks if not days, but an adult would be incapacitated for months.

Mindovermatter,

I think that's the problem that you are not aware of the history. Prophet Muhammad swas was circumcised by his grandfather ?Abdul-Muttalib on the seventh day of Prophet's birth as was the custom of the Arabs.

Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) is reported to have said, ?Five are the acts quite akin to fitrah (cleanliness): Circumcision, shaving the pubes, cutting the nails, plucking the hair under the armpits and clipping (or shaving) the moustache.? (Reported in all the six authentic collections of Hadith)

The Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) recommended performing circumcision at an early age. Al- Mawardi stated that the chosen time is the 7th day after birth, but it can be carried out up to 40 days after birth or thereafter until the age of 7 years, depending upon the health of the infant or child at the time.


See, it's not just a muslim thing, it's a tradition of Ibrahim AS, and all his ancestors. Allah has been ordering His creations to do this from the beginning of time yet you raise an argument against it?

Okay, here's a scenario for you. Slaughtering of animals shouldn't be done because you are killing them for godsakes, no? I mean common, it's just a tradition of Prophet Ibrahim and Prophet Ismail AS. We should abandon it. Why hurt the animals. Poor animals. Oh my god, Muslims are soooooooooo barbaric (Sorry for the outburst, I don't usually get irritated like that, and I apologize, but plz read and understand the matters before you talk about them. It just makes your arguments pretty invalid and immature. TFU.

Hello qrizwan,

If this is an issue which strikes a chord with you just take 15 minutes, go on the internet and read the opposing sides viewpoint. As regards to AIDS read my comments posted for halkibsi. I recently spent a night at the hospital with a lady whose newborn was circumcised at birth. He was crying horribly, possibly from the discomfort of the procedure. This is barbaric. I don't believe Prophet Muhammad advocated or practiced circumcision but even you believe if he did, he would have undergone the procedure after he recieved Prophethood, at the age of 40. So from that we can learn that its okay to wait until the child grows up.

Hello,

Thank you for your comments. I think I should sharpen my arguments but I don't believe one has to be a Phd to have strong convictions about an issue. Since you have raised questions of my credibility, well I was raised by my grandfather, a very outstanding physician, and "old school" doctor as you say so that was my environment and and I myself I am currently doing Pre-med course of study which only requires "some college" in USA, so I have just a little broader perspective than a layperson, but still lots to learn. I have examined both aspects of this issue, there are opposing medical opinions. Yes I could make this an extremely long research style entry which people would then avoid reading but I'm only trying to raise an issue to get people to think and people have the internet to do their own research about an issue with two sides. Its obvious you have read the opinions in favor but have you studied the arguments against it? Are you aware that not too long ago it was common for a doctor to carry out this procedure without anesthetics, because they thought it was not painful, and later realised oops we were wrong. Medicine is not an exact science. As you yourself state in your profile, one should not believe everything they hear and read.A large population of this world, Hindus and many christians, many oriental, are noncircumcised, and disease prevails there just as much as with us. Is disease caused by bad hygeine, and sexual practices or the presence or absence of a piece of skin. Does evaluating this, require a degree or just common sense? Think about it. Maybe physicians who promote circumcision have deep rooted religious convictions about it and choose to see things a certain way? Maybe we should ask nonreligiously biased physicians and try to think outside the box

I'm not against circumcision just because it is a Jewish practice. The Quran states the parable of a honeybee that gathers nectar from all kinds of flowers from different areas, such should be our knowlege gathering efforts: wisdom can come from many diverse sources. the Quran also states that the Jews have made many things unlawful on themselves that Allah has not made unlawful, this is an actual ayat. It specifies that they have made unlawful eating those things with claws, and the fat that sticks to bones.These are the ones stated specifically but the Quran also again makes a nonspecific reference and from that I infer circumcision Some muslims I know consider shrimp as unlawful and on the same note circumcision as well but this is not derived from our Quran. I don't think the Prophet went outside the realm of Quran in his practices, so if muslims were religiously required to do this, Allah was not short of words.

I think teenagers or children able to talk and not wearing diapers handle pain better than infants. How many infants or children have you heard of who got cancer of the penis or other serious conditions as a result of being uncircumcised? They don't. My final take home message is this that if circumcision must be done for whatever reason, why not wait until the child is older to any degree greater than being an infant. Or why not wait until they are old enough to decide what they want to do on their own. Ok I tried to refine my argument a bit, wish I had more time.

besides, more HIV patients are those that are not circumcised. the extra skin is more receptive to germs, ewww. i can't believe someone would consider something so beneficial to be just a practice.

more people are getting circumcised after getting educated about it (non-muslims and non-jews)

Also, whatever Prophet swas said/ordered, is not only a sunnah, but Allah's command too because ALlah said in Quran clearly to 'do what Prophet asks you, and leave what he leaves'.

you have 'some college' as your educational background to back your accusations towards what many world and historic doctors had to say about it: www.circinfo.net

read and learn... besides, decisions such as circumcision should not be made by my kids when they become teens... they're not old enough or know enough to weigh in the health benefits vs the risks (which is more beneficial if done).

at any rate, im not sure why this entry was submitted in the first place... you have no arguement... you said you wanted to present the "humanistic and medical and religious aspects of circumcision"... yet you presented the humanistic aspect with no religious or medical representation whatsoever.

you feel infants are hurt by this procedure? i agree with you, but its for the benefit of this male infant to go through this pain (which isn't remembered btw) rather than risk going through serious medical complications from infections and other health risks if he should not undergo this procedure.

you said "I think it is a Jewish tradition which has gotten mixed up in our religion..." what if it was some sort of jewish tradition or religious practice??? if the benefits overtake the risks, then why not embrace it?? why do we Muslims always have to condone anything Jewish even if it was good?!?!?! WHY?! this was not the way of the Prophet, nor is it the way of Islam...

anywho... blah! nothing more to say except Ramadan Mubarak to everyone insha-Allah!!

fi amani-Allah
Haitham

you keep calling all these myths, what are your sources?
this article is the biggest myth:P

no kidding aside, provide us with medical proofs or it's simply a waste of anyone's time to refute any of your claims.