finding manji inadequate as an activist/islamic reformer does not equate to denying that the ummah is messed up. its summed up best by this: islam is perfect. its muslim ppl that are screwed up. and certainly you and i are no exception either.

AvaS, i think its rather sweet that you give manji so much benefit of the doubt. we should do this more as muslims. even still, I find her book is less apologetic than you describe it. actually, its rather pretensions. i'm sure she had several reasons for writing it. including the benign, introspective ones you mention, ie holding onto her faith. however, this outward monologue of personal issues are being used as cheap shots, fueling the "they're jealous of our freedom" mantra AND she does not seem to mind at all. it is significant to mention her greatest supporters have ulterior motives of which they are rather outspoken about. over emphasis on the mid-east aside; since when do we allow the jdl and company to tell us who is a-okay? this is a reflection on her until she comes out and says otherwise. this is like getting fashion tips from monica lewinsky, frumpy! or asking president bush to proof read something, or looking for quality programming on upn. these are unreliable endeavors that raise more doubts than answers. there?s more fulfillment in giving a piggy back ride to a sumo wrestler! furthermore, manji?s partially lightened pro-israeli proclamations in conjunction w/ opinionated rants do little to qualify her as an activist, social reformer, or whatever other title she has since been given.

Fitra, I don't think that she puts it on the same level at all. I've never got that impression about her book or from her interviews. Ifrit, you find my comment ludicrous but there is truth to it. I do like the rest of your post and will therefore overlook how ludicrous you think my earlier point might be ;-) Yes, you're right, a lot of people feel "duped" by the idea of what Islam says it offers but fails to deliever and by looking at our "wonderful" community who would blame them? ___________________ We're a racist bunch of people? LOL - I never knew!! (Being sarcastic here). ______________ Priya, read the book, it's not as terrible as people think it is. The point is that Manji says nothing new but she puts in layman terms and that's important. Again, it is not a book on the scholarship of Islam - they're better ones out there by Karen Armstrong, Espisito, and others that I can recommend instead, but I still encourage people to read it and look at what is written.____________________ You have to read the intro, it says it all - here is a person hanging onto a thread, feels like she's loosing her religion and is asking you and I to help her "hold on" to what she "does not want to loose." It's actually a plea for help rather than an attempt to "bash a religion" and her efforts to find a way to hold on to her faith - you find this discussed in detail in the final pages of the book. Anyhow, she has apparently talked openly that the "pressures of others to leave her faith" has left her much at loss and she might leave (so Ifrit, what people say does have an affect).

yeah, manji gives the impression she puts her book on par w/ ?the davinci code" or "angels and demons". dan brown for muslims she is not. w/o the 9/11 crutch she'd be nowhere.

my issue with irshad isn't that she criticizes the state of muslims today. many others do the same and i respect them for saying it like it is. but when you do it without a solid knowledge of what it is that you want to return to (as in irshad's case) then i'm afraid you do disservice to the cause.

manji is more of a sensationalist than a social reformer indeed! due to the current political climate this is hot. if someone wrote the book called "the trouble w/ hunduism" it would not be as hot of a topic b/c they are not the group under global scrutiny rt now, timing. all religions have their woes, even buddhism. i like what Rozaiba said re: respecting apposing view pts. there is a big intolerance of ideas in this world. disagreement should not necessitate hatred. that is what tolerance means to me. voice your view pt. just be willing to also take what you have dished out.ex: manji has criticized islam ergo muslims criticize her. i'm sure she saw this comming. likely, she just didn't care.

Irshad is from Toronto, Canada. I know of her and I think without her media savvy nature there would be no vigorous debate over the current Islamic reform movement. However, she has poor academic skills and relies heavy on sensationalistic arguments.

LOL That is the funniest thing I have heard Ifrit! "I had never experienced so much patent racism in my life until I became a Muslim, and as a black man in America that is saying alot." It's true!

does she ever actually define what ijtihad is? and what happens when all the ijtihad in the world does not lead to conclusions irshad wants to hear? i haven't read her book but i've heard her speak, read her articles and had a small discussion with her in person. what i find disturbing is that the process she has in mind seems to be backwards i.e. determine what we want islam to be and then find a way to read that into scripture. a huge part of the problem with her vision is that she doesn't believe that the qur'an is the immaculate word of God. with such a premise, the ijtihad one envisions is quite a bit different.

Well said Ifrit! I say it over and over again: The true test of a persons tolerance is if they while believing in their own faith, also believe that the other person's faith is EQUALLY valid. Equally right. Equal in all respects. For Muslims (as is for people of all religions), that is a hard thing to swallow. ie. "It's just as good if you're a Hindu? Or an athiest? Your beliefs are still as good as mine?" That is why most Muslims fail the test of equality in my book. They are an intolerant bunch. What is not cool is that there are potentially very intelligent individuals who say they really like such and such a book, or such and such a movie, or such and such a message, but when it comes to real life, the accident of their birth and the accident Muslims that they are takes precedance over what they've learned and absorbed through life.

Avas, that is ludicrous. No one LEAVES the faith because of something someone said necessarily. It is very tiresome to hear people blaming others for "leaving" Islam and it is not at all helpful. Whether she is right or wrong at least Manji is talking about what she feels is wrong instead of taking the "bury your head in the sand" approach to it which seems to be very common to date. People are leaving Islam because they feel duped. They realize that the community WITHIN the Umma is far more segregated. It is so easy for us to point the finger at external and "western" factors for what troubles Islam, when in fact most of our true problems are internal. However too many people beleive that this makes the religion look less than perfect. I had never experienced so much patent racism in my life until I became a Muslim, and as a black man in America that is saying alot.

and while it is note worthy that manji has since softened her praise of israel, her initial admiration remains an area of doubt re: her notoriety gained through subjectivity. was it that manji eventually realized that connections w/ a pro-israeli agenda caused her additional scrutiny that she was unwilling to go out on a limb for? in order to gain credibility and shed her well deserved biased appearance, she opportunistically dropped her support of the zionist nation? lets face it, muslims are fixated on the middle east b/c its a hot spot. anyone who is politically and socially conscious has this interest in the region too, muslim or not. whether its human rts, oil or religion, current upheaval is there. but, i agree w/ maji on this: we should not only care about these things b/c there is a direct connection. i?m not sure where her position on the following is but to me; muslims should care equally about mother nature, venezuela, cuba, palestine, hati,iraq, ect. they are all important in islam.

whether its the book or what manji says in her book is like splitting hairs. the message is the same and the logic is still flawed. _______________________AvaS wrote: ?Manji is a saying, "If Islam does not endorse these things, then why are we practicing these things? And if they are part of Islam, then is Islam the problem?""_________________________ _______________ see my comment below. it still applies. me: "even if there are many who do endorse it, that in no way qualifies what she says as islam. she does have some valid pts...." no one is dismissing her notions altogether, at least i'm not. however, there are questions raised in her motives due to the manner in which her message is presented; supported by an openly anti-muslim lobby. the fact remains that maji is the new defacto spokesperson for the current climate of american xenophobia. i find it kinda ironic that she eludes to undertones of this very notion (intolerance) among muslims, yet caters to it against islam at the same time. it comes across as spiteful moreso than anything else. likely spawning from non-acceptance by most muslims. perhaps a hate that hate produces. sure she has a right to say whatever she likes based upon her own experiences as a muslim. just like other muslims have a right to criticize it based on our own experiences as muslims.

Fitra, you have taken this comment out of context: "What is she saying and if this is not Islam, then why is it that so much of the Muslim world is endorsing something like this?" This comment was not in reference to her book.___________________ Manji is a saying, "If Islam does not endorse these things, then why are we practicing these things? And if they are part of Islam, then is Islam the problem?" _____________________________ See Fitra, I don't know if you read the book but if you have her key point is not the pro-Israel stance but the failure of the Muslim World to acknowledge 50 per cent of its people - women. She has contributed a huge percentage of her book to charity. By the way, she has disclosed that she had taken too soft a stance with Israel in her book (she mentioned this on her website). I think for most people she is frightening because she is a lesbian and second she got support from the Jewish people. Those are pretty poor reasons to negate what she wrote. You know, the times that I have heard about her on television or radio she has not presented herself as a Muslim expert and if you see her as one, then its about as daft as looking at the Taliban as representtives of Islam. __________________ Again the point of her book is someone's perspective on their faith and how it affects their life. You and I could write such a book describing any issues we have encountered and no-one has the right to tell you - you're wrong and shouldn't have written it. Also no-one has gone so far as to write a book - The Trouble with Manji or corrected her comments (I read the CAIR article on her site and that is the only one that came close but even then it was pretty mediorce and actually lent support to some of the frightening stereotypes she was talking about in her book!!). ___________________ And Zephyr, actually Manji talks about why she has not left Islam in her book - it means something to her as a faith. It is apparent you have not met a lot of apostates in your life; there are as many people leaving Islam today prompted by comments like yours. My suggestion is to avoid comments like that as it does not help anyone who is struggling with issues regarding their faith. For some people it can be the end of even believing the Kalma and that will be on your head - what good have you done then?

The seeming pro-Israel stance of Manji is odd. I mean, ok, being Pro-Jewish has merit. Jewish contributions to literature, philosophy, music, cinema, etc are unmatched. Probably no single community has contributed as much as the Jews have. It's quite amazig how one 'small' community can give rise to so many brilliant individuals. However, I don't see what Manji see in Israel that makes her seemingly take a pro-Israel stance. How does being pro-Israel mesh with Ijtihad?

manji's muslim background give her a token status which she thus far has not objected to. it is important to look at the motives and sources when examining anything critically. manji's ties, funding, and logic are all questionable. although she is known more as a gay muslim, her pro-israel proclamations are not far behind. while her underlying message of ijtihad is valid, it does little to grant her merit. if the focus was a more even handed criticism of the muslim world w/o superficial and ill-researched attacks, she would be more credible. her acclaim of israel is the quintessential example of this.

Enigmatic_sky:
Perhaps she is. But it takes nothing away from the substance of her argument. That reform is required. Her praise of Israel and its oppressive policies on Palestine is not really noteworthy, but that's not what she is known for. Nor will she be known for that. Irrespective of how many trips she makes to Israel. It is her underlying message that needs to be critiqued and analyzed.

To ROZAIBA --- But she is playing the Zionist tune. How many trips has she made to Israel that have all been paid for by AIPAC or the ADL?

I do hope that Manji is smart enough not to play to the Zionist tunes....Because it seems she has a lot to say and it needs to be said....she is well-placed to break stereotypes and force Muslims to reconsider and judging by the negative comments to her sexual orientation, it seems she is on the right path.

by the way israeli diversity is a farce! the ashkenazi (european) jews run everything! arab jew and especially east african ones are treated quite poorly. this is well documented too. HUMAN RIGHTS WATCH hrw.org , www.arc.org