Angil, I think some people are strange enough to believe praying etc cancels out their other misdeeds (being nasty to others or sleeping around).. they know full well what they're doing is wrong, but stick to the hajj or whatever get out clause.. as in.. it doesn't matter what else I did. since I went on hajj it's all been cancelled for me.. they know their theory is flaky..but they're hardly going to go around admitting to their misdeeds and being busy putting up a pious face ( praying etc. ) as well.. it would make them look like the weirdly inconsistent people they are.. hence they have to stick to the one (better) theory.....Stajani.. I don't think there's anything you can do - taking drugs or sleeping around - that doesn't affect others.. those who start this behaviour in their teens/ 20s are usually hooked well into the years when they have families this does affect.. sleeping around affects the other people you're using... and sleeping around and taking drugs are setting bad examples for others.. as Muslims we are SUPPOSED to be judgemental.. we all know the boundaries.. and are supposed to tell ppl off when they transgress them or stop talking to them/ leave the room when they're there if they ignore our advice.. i think those who say 'it's between me and my god' conveniently think their deeds aren't going to catch up with them in this life or the next... as a Muslim community I don't think you can ignore what others are doing to the extent that you simply let God judge but continue to befriend them

marissa - "If a person chooses to hurt himself/herself we as a society are obligated to help out". I have a problem with this self-imposed obligation. Yes if the person is a kid and doesnt know the difference then the elders should intervein, but for growups and adults, i dont think that obligation would do them any good. The only thing that helps is their own realistion of the situation, which will not occur by people trying to impose stuff on them. Instead, what could help is, to have help available when they want it. Thus giving them liberty to do what they want and not what the society wants for them.

im just gonna respond to the original questions. our value systems and actions are a mixture of both reaction and reflection(with the latter being the rational thought process). on a side note id like to apologize for any wording errors in advance, me and english dont really get along. in fact sometimes our actions and value systems are contradictory to one another, for example the basic values instilled in a person from childhood might not coincide with their view of the world as grown ups, and so their actions are natural or forced contradictions of their "value system". i belive this person probably leads a more emotionaly straining life than the person whos actions are built upon or are spin off's of their value systems.
i belive conservatism and liberalism are more readily observed in ones actions rather than their beliefs, i mean who can list me their value systems off the top of their head. and this leads me to think that conservatism and liberalism are more self taught than they are inherited, after a certain point in ones psychological timeline ofcourse. i wana point out that my response is confined to the guidelines of the questions because these questions are not answerable in mini comments such as these.
as to the third part of the JE, this is a religious issue and when it comes to religion everyone has their own interpretations. however everyone in our faith, islam, should know that their are certain things that are clearly prohibited and those that are encouraged and rewarded. in the middle are topics of uncertainty, which to be on the safe side should be avoided. it is my opinion that "sleeping around is not one of these uncertain areas, it is clearly prohibited. as to inconsistencies in behavior, which by the way in a perfect world should always be governed by religion(behavior), hows it go thats life this is walgreens? anywhoo off topic. ah inconsistencies: if the person doesnt know what theyre doing is wrong, then they are sadly misguided and it is our duty as muslims to "guide them to the right path", however if they are aware of the evil of their deeds than it is merely a weakness of iman, this does not make them kuffar. i shouldnt say merely because a weak iman can be as dangerous as a little kid playing on an escalator (any mall rats fans?)this is not to say that they are not nice peoplpe. they could be the kindest person u ever meet but they are still misguided. im loosing my train of thought. the question asks whether i belive that they think both are right or they think that one is wrong but still do it. there is no definite answer because i have witnessed both cases and been a victim to them myself. if they think that both are right then it falls on one more knowledgable to set them straight and if they know one is wrong and continue doing it then they need help.

after all that(sorry it got kinda long) , what do i know im just a kid. Allah swt and his messenger know best.

Mysticlvr- agree with you totally, I think we are all the time making judgements about people, and they are not always bad. When something is morally wrong (as stated in religion), the person is doing a wrong. We cant endorse a wrong can we? But what we can do is not spread it, maybe try and help the person out even. Stajani, I dont think we should NOT care about a person if he/she takes drugs, I think we should. If a person chooses to hurt himself/herself we as a society are obligated to help out. We must not put that person down, but we must not also think thats its up to them, its their choice let them do it.

but why is judging wrong? only God can judge in the grand sense - as in give the person a sentence... or punish/reward... but we can still make judgements. if we don't, then we can't develop any idea of right and wrong or morality... without judging, we are walking around enabling everyone to be heathens and everyone is a solitary robot with no moral influence on the other. judging is ok... as long as it is not gossip or to demean the other, put them down, etc.

I would have to agree with Mamad, JP, Mystic and Aliya on this one. I do think that if someone is mean and rude to others, I would definitely not want to be around that person. Because you are hurting others and thats not right. Now if a person chooses to hurt themselves by taking drugs, sleeping around blah blah, then thats up to them. Thats between them and God. We have no right to judge them, bottom line.

It amazes me to see that people here are so judgemental. Who are we to say that if they sleep around, they are not practicing their faith? I know lots of people who are amazing people, have had mutiple partners, pray and do their fasting and are really smart people. So who are we to judge them to what they are doing is right or wrong? Those things do not really matter to me. I might find it wrong for myself to be sleeping around but because of that, why would I say they are wrong? Its their personal business and its between them and God. After reading all your comments, that made me realize that most of you here are very judgemental.

Hadith: Prophet Muhammad ( PBUH ) asked his Sahab " who will be the poorest, most broke guy on judgment day??" ..... Sabah replied " O my beloved Prophet Muhammad ( PBUH ), we dont know " ... Prophet Muhammad answered ,, " The person who pray five times a day, had full Month of Ramadhaan and pray and fasten in it, so many Umraas and Hujjs, so much charity work, but on the judgment day he found out that it was all for a show, a show for others so they think he is great person and a relegious person. On that day, all his prayers will be wasted and he will be left with NOTHING. all his SAWAAB will be distributed among the people hurt by him.""

Jasmine........you said it EXActly right, "The true muslims, are those who do not criticize or judge others because they are at peace with god and are good people, therefore, they dont feel they have to make harsh judgements to make themselves holier than thou." I know women who are considered to be 'religious'...yet they scorn those who are not up to 'their' standards.....but to me, these people ARE NOT religious, becaues they have not understood the spirit and beauty of Islam!! I mean, Islam teaches humbleness...what is soo humble about putting others down and feeling that you are 'better'!? I do think however that a person who has knowledge in ISlam should try to teach others, but without forcing it down someones throat and without passing judgement on them if they disagree or choose not to listen. Marissa, you are probably right......maybe there are people who can pray 5 times a day and still commit adultery......but its something that is waaaaaaay beyond my comprehension and understanding!!!

nura - you are 100% right... spirituality is a long road. :) And thank God! I hope I never stop struggling or am so arrogant that i think i have the answers.

Mysticlover you're right about people being vicious. But everyone has flaws and your descrition of this mean and judgemental person sounds better than the hyporcate hijabi to me. But this is exactly why judgement is left to Allah and He knows who is better than whom? :)

look around on naseeb sam... i will not backbite, but i know quite a few girls and guys who are really quite vicious with words and not nice, compassionate, etc. YET they know hadith and the Quran like the back of their hands and they pray even the extra prayers. some people can get so religious without being wise and they sometimes get a superiority complex and although they seeeeeeem sooooo pious, they are really spitefull, mean, judgemental, etc. maybe not sleeping around, but often finding "holes" in the system to justify their acts that are really not that good.

Well said Mamad..

Sam...you would be surprised, there are such people!

I hardly think that a person who prays 5 times a day will sleep around.....and if so, they are probably jsut performing the 'ritual' of prayer without understanding the depth of their actions and without having the purest of intentions. To pray brings you closer to God...I mean, right after praying salat....I feel guilty to turn on the TV because it is filled with soo much filth, so how can someone go from the mind set of "standing before their creator"....to commiting such a sin as sleeping with someone out of wedlock?! NOT possible!! Anyways....I guess that's besides the point, to actually answer the question. I think that what you have been taught, and your experiences have a huge impact on what you do....but in the end, its our choices that prevail.....based on logic, discipline (or lack of it) and desires (which unfortunately tends to throw our logic out the window). I know some people who have grown up in strict conservative background...yet choose to go crazy as soon as they have the opportunity...the same holds true for people who have grown up without any rules, they sometimes end up choosing to be more conservative. Again, Leanred behaviour has a huge impact, but on the day of judgement you cannot put the entire blame on your circumstances....its YOUR choices, and YOUR actions that prevail.

marissa and mamad - well said! InshaAllah as we age, we mature morally as well - to the point that we are no longer pawns of our surroundings and upbringings, but fully moral beings able to rationally analyze situations and come to a holistic answer that takes into account our backgrounds, etc., but does not let them dictate for us what we do.

Religion is very personal. It all depends on what someone regards as right or wrong. There are differences between liberals and conservatives because the interpretations of sacred texts are exactly that: interpretations. None of us live in a social vacuum and neither did our Prophet. The Quran and hadith were revealed to teach the pagan Arabs about Islam. They are a collected work of 23 years of his prophet-hood. The question isn't that Islam is not complete. The question is, do we know enough to interpret it correctly.

Most of our early behavior is learned from home and school, so goes for being liberal or conservative. As one braches out into the world or surroundings change and a person attains maturity, one begins to make more rational (or even irrational) choices based on the then stimuli from the surroundings. What one has been taught or learned can change as circumstances change, liberals become conservatives and vice versa or remain unchanged.

On the third part, I don?t think the person sees praying, fasting and sleeping around as ALL being all right. If a person prays and fasts, it is highly unlikely that he/she would not know sleeping around to be a sin. I think it doesn?t mean if you are doing one sin you should stop doing all other goods. At the end of the day, his/her prayers/fasting might be the one that gets him/her bakshish (forgiveness). Every sin and every good a person does has it?s own penalties and rewards. One shouldn?t stop the other. If you can do one little good, just do it!

oh gosh, thank you for a good question! :) I'll come back to this for sure and answer it. :) GREAT question...

In my humble opinion no one ever does anything thinking it wrong! We all have our rationale for doing something no matter how irational it may sound to others. No thief or murderer or rapists thinks he wronged someone. They all have justifications and they truly believe in those justifications. As for religion, it is highly subjective. In case of most Muslims it is a mix of culture, religion, societal norms and personal opinions. e.g South Asian Muslims find a belly baring sari to be a decent outfit but a knee lenghth skirt as scandulous. Another more apropos example is of certain "progressive" Muslims who claim that all religions are equally good and Islam is very archaic and backward in some ways etc, but when they have problems these same ladies start chanting the most ridiculous "wazeefas". I fail to see any rationality there but to them there is justification to all their actions and thoughts!