MC I HAVE TO WORK TOOOOO,,, I CAN'T READ ALL THAT,,,, CAN YOU PLS SUMMARIZE IT FOR ME,,,,,, AND KEEP IT TO THE POINT BABE SO I CAN RESPOND TO WHATEVER YOUR WTITING,,,,,,,,,CHEERS HUN

hmmm...in the spirit of charity, i have decided to drop it...u do what u think is right...May Allah keep us united as brothers and sisters....insh'allah.

so, got any jokes brother? P:

I have responded to every point that has been raised. You will see that each of my responses to you was at least twice as long as yours, becuase I wanted to counter every thing you raised.

So, now you come along with all of four paragraphs accusimg me of being selective, not responding fully and taking things out of context?

I'll tell you who got 'caught out'.

It wasn't me.

ur part of the muslim community (ummah)...if u say u r a muslim...and u say shahadat...then by default u belong to a body of people called muslims...

no matter how much u muslim- bash, idealise christians, hate ur own community, u can't change that u r part of it...unless you renounce Islam..u are linked in faith to ur muslim brothers and sisters...just like every group and people help their own first, then worry about those in other countries, when their own are taken care of...who neglects their own people and rush to others, it's not natural, even in nature, it doesn't work like that...


i have no intention to slur you or degrade you, ur a brother in islam...i disagree with you in principle...I said u r probably a lovely person...I don't know u...only getting to know you by what u write....this is not personal...but man...

if u read back over what u wrote u will find that you were very selective over what u said...please take the time to read all the comments presented to you for your benefit....it would be much better if u took what people have said as a whole, not just quoting a line or two of theirs out of context....nice try, but u got caught out.. ;)

?hmm....so you posted this up on a forum....you got a lot of feedback and you took on board people's honest comments...and carried on what you were doing regardless!!! sounds very George Bush and Tony Blair to me. Intellectually speaking, you have not responed on point of logic and reason to anyone on here.?

When I posted this topic, I was not looking for advice or approval. I was asking for people to contribute to a charity. With the exception of Sky, all I got was small-minded whining? and you expect me to stop because of that? I am not quite sure which thread you?ve been reading, but it does not sound like this one. I have done nothing but respond with ?points of logic?, yet all I seem to get in return is rather feeble quibbling, insults and half-truths.

?You are acting reactively and emotionally to the constructive comments offered to you in sincerity. ?

Oh, which constructive comments were these?

?THEY ARE NATIONAL FRONT T SHIRTS?

Or;

?YOU BOYS GOT A LITTLE BUSINESS IN THE NAME OF CHARITY,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,SCAMERS!!! !?

Or;

?This is just so gay!?

Or;

?I would rather die than be seen in t-shirt of this sort?

Or;

?the stupid t-shirt should say " we r S*** scared, but we won't change our foreign policy anyway, so no point u bothering with all this suicide S***"?

Or;

?everyone know how red cross opperate they have there own agenda and its giving a slice of bread in one hand and the bible in the other??

Tell me, which one of these ?constructive? comments should I be taking to heart?

?Do you have any idea about the lockdown on british muslim charities raising money and trying to get it to muslim brothers and sisters abroad????

This is a bit of a pathetic excuse. Even here in the US, where the politicians are experts in shutting down Muslim charities and throwing their directors in jails, there are still charities that are functioning and sending money abroad. I know because I?ve contributed to them. Some of my friends even send money back to Pakistan by themselves, without involving any charity? where it is disbursed to those in need. You don?t need a charity to exist when you can do it yourself.

Just because you have ignorant politicians unjustly shutting down charities, that is not an excuse to do nothing.

?I'm not going to get preachy, but hopefully, the whole intention behind this is for reward from Allah...?

Don?t think too much of yourself that you can understand what my intentions are. I am not looking for any reward, either here or in the hereafter. As I said before, it?s not about me.

?how can i put this....What would Muhammad (pbuh)do??? Leave his own ummah to help others??? Would the west ever do the same??? It's almost understandable, that the west operates on the pretext of their interest always comes first, any effect on others is "collateral damage"....but to see a muslim ?!!!!!?

I have no idea what the prophet would do, unlike many others, I do not presume to be smart enough to second-guess him. However, I know what many so-called Muslims do. They sit idly by, finding fault in Christians when all around me I see more Christians helping Muslims than even Muslims do. Even then, Muslims view the resulting charity with suspicion. PP thinks that the RedCross hands out bibles with food. No facts. No reality. Just made up half-baked half-truths.

?1)please highlight which families lost both parents....in the muslim countries mentioned, you will find thousands of orphaned children, with poverty and disease to compound to their suffering...from your "humanitarian" view, not because they are part of your ummah, which child is worse off? why can you not accept that the standard of living in western countries is very high vis-a-vis war-torn muslim countries...and that is not a coincidence, please read western imperial history.?

Is this the best you can come up with? I?ll list the names of each family that I?m trying to help if you list the names of each family you think I should be trying to help. Are trying to suggest that none of these families need any help and that they should be able to carry on as if nothing happened? Are you telling us that none of them suffered enough to need extra assistance? If this is how you truly feel, would you tell them this to their face?

I have said here repeatedly, that we have also helped other charities in other countries, so I don?t know why you?re throwing Muslim orphans at me.

What ever happened in ?western imperial history? is not an excuse to sit in front of a computer all day finding fault in those who try to help others.

?so now taxes do not work...something to take up with your politician...why haven't you started a revolution about the mismanagement of public taxes????

I write articles on the internet, I send letters to my local politicians at least once a week. I give talks. I even share books amongst people I meet. They question is, what have you done about the wasting of our taxes on silly things like wars and other wasteful projects?

Let me guess. Nothing?

?why are we paying them if they don't work and why are you carrying on with paying them yourself??

I am not sure if you?ve noticed, but taxes are compulsory. If you don?t pay them, they throw you in jail.

When in the US, I cancel out most of my tax obligations by instead giving the same money to charities. I?d much rather my taxes go to a good cause, than a bad one.

?The model of the welfare state is an islamic model (bait-al-mal), i'm sorry you see a Quranic concept as flawed.?

No, you are wrong. Our welfare state is based on a socialist model. If it was right, don?t you think it would have worked by now? Instead, there are now more people on benefits than ever before.

?Any better suggestions??

Yes, we should instead be contributing to charities where we can exercise our choice (that?s the Islamic model), rather than have a politician take your money by force to give to illegal immigrants, criminals and teenage mothers who get pregnant so they don?t have to work (the socialist model).

?As far as living on benefits alone, people working 40,50, 60 hours a week on minimum wage can still earn less than some people on benefits...?

So, this is the ?islamic model? that you?re telling me ?works??

Forgive me for not being too impressed.

Again, welfare does not work. It is not a substitute for charity. It encourages people to stay on welfare and fails to truly help those who really need it.

?it was no trouble to write about the plight of muslims, our brothers and sisters....if you feel non-muslims are so much more effective than muslims, surely you should try and help the muslim charities become more effective...western charities, like western armies and infrastructure for example, are much more effective...it's great to praise them for that, but we still need our own for the ummah....?

Oh okay. Thanks for adding to the never ending list of things I have to do.

Not only am I struggling to help those less off than myself but I also have to take time out to teach Muslims how to help their fellow Muslims. What else should I help them with? Should I wipe their noses and potty-train them? Should I show them that trousers can only be put on, one leg at a time? I guess someone needs to teach them never to pee into the wind too. Which other things that every other human being on the planet can manage for themselves, do I have to teach Muslims?

You keep rattling on about ummah-this and ummah-that, as if Muslims are some kind of superior master-race.

If God never intended for us to care for non-Muslims too, why did he make them? Do you think that he does not care about the Christians and Jews he created? Do you think he intended for Muslims to be better off than anyone else?

Jews also think that they are the ?choosen people?. You seem to have a lot in common with them.

?I suggest to you that amongst the greatest problems we face in this world are poverty, war and hunger....why are you trying to minimize these facts, just to make your cause seem justifiable??? that's pretty outrageous. ?

You missed my point entirely. Poverty, war and hunger can only exist when one becomes blind to the suffering of a fellow human being.

What?s ?outrageous? is that this has been happening for many thousands of years, but yet, somehow I am at fault for pointing it out.

?finally, what do we have in common? We are muslims, we are seeking Allah's reward (swt), Allah (swt) has guided us that we are an ummah and we must care for each other as brothers and sisters, helping others is fine, but not when they are more than capable of helping themselves, and YOUR brothers and sisters languish in war, poverty, disease and YOUR APATHY towards them.?

That is, I must say, the most ridiculous thing I have come across in a long time.

1) I am not seeking any reward.
2) Ummah-what? Fat lot of good your ummah is doing you. I see more Christians around me helping Muslims than Muslims. It looks like Muslims can barely do much more than whine and whinge about how unfair the world is.
3) My ?brothers and sisters? are not restricted to just Muslims. Maybe yours are, but not mine.
4) As I?ve stated before, I have worked for other charities around the world. What we?re seeing in this thread, is not my apathy, it?s yours.

?I'm curious why are you such a muslim-basher??? Can you see no positivity in your ummah??

Give me a break. I am the one being bashed here. If anyone has been ?bashing? a Muslim here, it?s you and everyone here, with the exception of Sky.

I have done nothing but state facts and my own observations. If you do not like facts then that is your problem, not mine.

?It may not be what it should be, a model glorifying Allah (swt), but that's our shortcoming, yours and mine and all the muslims shoulder the responsibility for that.....?

Enough with the ummah thing already. I?ve been hearing this propaganda for the last 30 years. I didn?t believe it then and I don?t believe it now. On judgment day, you will be accountable for your own actions, not those of the ummah. You keeping hiding behind this ummah-thing as if it?s an excuse for your own inaction. It?s not. Get over it.

?Christians helping muslims, hmm... it's not as simple as that, they could help a lot better by not attacking them for one, not destroying the khilafat in the first place and living in fairness, peace and harmony, as christians are permitted to in muslim lands since at least 1400 years ago....?

Oh here we go. Christians are the cause of all your problems. Thanks for clearing that one up for me. I knew it wasn?t our fault. I guess Osama was right after all. We poor Muslims only have Christians to blame for our problems.

?WOW! Neo-conservatism propaganda has really come a long way!!! With muslims apathetic to their own ummah, they are certainly winning the propaganda war....even recruiting muslims to their cause!!!?

You obviously have no idea. I have written even here on Naseeb against the neo-conservative government. Obviously, you would rather make up your own slurs than stick to the facts. For all your high-minded talk about Islam, Muslims and the ummah you don?t hesitate to scrape the bottom of the barrel by slinging a little mud.

If this is what it means to be part of your ?ummah?, then you can keep it.

I want no part of it.

hmm....so you posted this up on a forum....you got a lot of feedback and you took on board people's honest comments...and carried on what you were doing regardless!!! sounds very George Bush and Tony Blair to me.

Intellectually speaking, you have not responed on point of logic and reason to anyone on here.

You are acting reactively and emotionally to the constructive comments offered to you in sincerity.

You made up your mind that you want to do this and that's all that you want to hear.

Do you have any idea about the lockdown on british muslim charities raising money and trying to get it to muslim brothers and sisters abroad???

No such crackdown on Jewish, Hindu or Christian charities...interesting.

Whatever the reason, the responsibility to plug the hole rests on all of us. I'm just suprised that you have the choice to help your muslim brothers and sisters with your charity and you choose not to. I'm not going to get preachy, but hopefully, the whole intention behind this is for reward from Allah...how can i put this....What would Muhammad (pbuh)do??? Leave his own ummah to help others??? Would the west ever do the same??? It's almost understandable, that the west operates on the pretext of their interest always comes first, any effect on others is "collateral damage"....but to see a muslim ?!!!!!

I am glad you did not "let this pass", because if I am misguided, I am grateful that you would bother to elucidate the issue for me...i would hope the sentiment is mutual...

I did not take a couple of days to find fault...i am suprised that you have gotten a very clear message from others, yet it seems to have been completely ignored by you...i trusted that you would "get it" by now....and the few days passed in patience...I didn't even check back here, so confident was i that you would take your brothers view on board....

I must say that your responses hardly make any sense...you got to ask yourself, why are u so convinced that this is the best way to proceed, i do not underestimate your sincerity, but having sincerity, but being misguided is no excuse...the same goes for the perpetrators of this tragedy...

1)please highlight which families lost both parents....in the muslim countries mentioned, you will find thousands of orphaned children, with poverty and disease to compound to their suffering...from your "humanitarian" view, not because they are part of your ummah, which child is worse off? why can you not accept that the standard of living in western countries is very high vis-a-vis war-torn muslim countries...and that is not a coincidence, please read western imperial history.

so now taxes do not work...something to take up with your politician...why haven't you started a revolution about the mismanagement of public taxes??? why are we paying them if they don't work and why are you carrying on with paying them yourself? The model of the welfare state is an islamic model (bait-al-mal), i'm sorry you see a Quranic concept as flawed. Any better suggestions?
As far as living on benefits alone, people working 40,50, 60 hours a week on minimum wage can still earn less than some people on benefits...that's where we get the concept chavs...people on benefits wearing burberry...I have hit hard times before, but my pride wouldn't let me collect benefits...but I could more than survive...it's not uncommon to see people on benefits with the latest phone and designer gear....your concern while sweet, is misplaced.

it was no trouble to write about the plight of muslims, our brothers and sisters....if you feel non-muslims are so much more effective than muslims, surely you should try and help the muslim charities become more effective...western charities, like western armies and infrastructure for example, are much more effective...it's great to praise them for that, but we still need our own for the ummah....

I suggest to you that amongst the greatest problems we face in this world are poverty, war and hunger....why are you trying to minimize these facts, just to make your cause seem justifiable??? that's pretty outrageous.

finally, what do we have in common? We are muslims, we are seeking Allah's reward (swt), Allah (swt) has guided us that we are an ummah and we must care for each other as brothers and sisters, helping others is fine, but not when they are more than capable of helping themselves, and YOUR brothers and sisters languish in war, poverty, disease and YOUR APATHY towards them.

I am not joining anyone in finding fault. Please accept the constructive comments intended for you...

I'm curious why are you such a muslim-basher??? Can you see no positivity in your ummah? It may not be what it should be, a model glorifying Allah (swt), but that's our shortcoming, yours and mine and all the muslims shoulder the responsibility for that.....Christians helping muslims, hmm... it's not as simple as that, they could help a lot better by not attacking them for one, not destroying the khilafat in the first place and living in fairness, peace and harmony, as christians are permitted to in muslim lands since at least 1400 years ago....

WOW! Neo-conservatism propaganda has really come a long way!!! With muslims apathetic to their own ummah, they are certainly winning the propaganda war....even recruiting muslims to their cause!!!

I must say that I feel the same way as Sky on this whole, 'but what about your fellow Muslims... you should help them first'... line.

I see far more Christians helping Muslims in different charities, than I see even Muslims helping Muslims.

You should be grateful that not everyone is so small minded.

There is always merit in helping your fellow human beings, no matter which religion they follow. In fact Islam gives many stories of non-Muslims converting by choice, after being helped by a Muslim in some way.

Growing up in East London I came across many people who repeated this, 'but what about your Muslim brothers and sisters?' line, who never contributed a penny to charity in their entire lives.

For some reason, Muslims have a natural inclination towards hypocrisy, but not charity.

Fun_ny, I was going to let this pass, but seeing as it took you a couple of days trying to find more faults with me (whilst ignoring my last response to your nit-picking), I could not help myself.

1) Not all of the victims of the bombings died. Many other innocent people become victims simply because they are the child/dependant of someone who died.

2) If taxes really worked, there would not be any homeless people. Have you ever tried living in London on benefits alone? The truth is the welfare state does not work. If anything, it is designed to keep people in poverty.

Taxes are also used for buying more weapons and ammunitions to kill people who have never attacked us.

That's hardly 'charity'.

3) You went to all the trouble to write a few flowery words about other Muslims, without realizing that the Red Cross helps Muslims in Iraq and Palestine and many other Muslim countries.

I would suggest to you, that they are far more effective than any other 'Islamic' charity in England.

4) Well, I know what we can do about 'that'. We can stop living our lives in apathy and try to contribute to those who really are making a difference.

The biggest problem we face in this world is not poverty, war or hunger. It's apathy. When it's so hard to ask one person to help another, there is no future for our civilized race.

Alternatively, you can join PP and Missie in finding fault in those who are trying to help. Oh, I see you already have.

If you are not part of the solution, you are part of the problem.

"All proceeds go to help victims of the London bombings."

sorry, to raise this point...aren't the "real victims" of the London bombings in their final resting place?

We help the families left behind, that have lost a bread-winner, and any other families struggling financially, with that lovely concept, TAXES!!! We actually have a welfare state up and running, which interestingly has borrowed from our Quranic concept of Bait-Al-Mal.

Spare a thought for your muslim brothers and sisters, who have no such institution to turn to, for help...where no state will intercede and ease the pain of the orphan and the widow...where they hold the wrong colour passport and the world already turned it's back on them...their lives are meaningless...no one holds silences for them, no one remembers them...

and they are still dying RIGHT NOW...

what shall we do about that Mchowdry?

i agree with enigmatic_sky, the ends definitely does not justify the means. so you raise a bit of money, there are other ways to do it. hell i could raise a lot more money selling drugs or arms on the black market and give the oney to charity. it sounds like an extreme example, but i am trying to make a point, that on one hand raising money may be good if it is fior a deserving cause, but it doesn't justify the harm that is caused by the method employed. in the case of these t-shirts, we have to think about what wearing them might imply. do we really want to promote the ideals of a country with a history of bloody conduct? a country still involved in many crimes around the world?

now peolpe that sell free palestine bumper stickers, iraqi orphan relief bracelets, things with well thought out slogans and objectives, have found a much better balance of raising money and promoting a good cause.

Thanks...

Yes, you are right. However, I am appealing to the 'mob' to help those in need, not to attack another country. To call it a lack of scruples is exactly right.

However, what people think of me is the last thing on my mind right now.

MC --- I just wanted to add that despite my criticisms I still think you're doing something very admirable.

thats it enigmatic let the people know you exist....

MC

As per your second point, I know a few graphic designers who are non-Muslims, but I'm sure they can put me in touch with others.

Your first point, however, filled me with foreboding. The end does not justify the means and I am astonished not only by your lack of scruples in this regard, but also that you announced them in a public space like this. The pros of patriotism are outweighed by its cons. To appeal to patriotism is to appeal to the mob.

Enigmatic_Sky, I can understand your aversion to patriotism, but to tell you the truth, it sells. It works. People buy it and it helps us to raise money.

If, to raise money, I had to print t-shirts with 'I Love Bush' or 'I Love Blair', then I'd do it. I can't stand either but I'd do it. It might make me an intellectual slut, that's a price I'm willing to pay. This is not about my political views. It's about helping others.

I would like to do other designs too. I have thought about, 'Muslims For Peace' or 'Not In My Name'. I like your suggestions as well. The problem is that I am limited by resources and talent. Graphics design is not my strength. I am a pilot by trade.

If you can come up with some good designs, email them to me and I'll put them up there. I'll even make a separate 'Muslims For Peace' store. If you know someone who can make better designs than I, get them to contact me too.

I am open to new ideas but I am now struggling with this on my own.

Enigmatic just like always you got the answres..i hail you...

bloody hell they've already turned u against ur own pakistani people and muslims by the looks of things...and i do give charity, all i said was why London before your own people (Muslims) use ur brain.. why do think the red cross symbol is a cross....come on educate urself..but pls carry on with ur work printing t-shirts handing out books what ever...inshallah i hope ur rewarding for ur open heart..

PP --- I have to disagree with you. The Red Cross or Red Crescent is a non-partisan organisation that helps all victims of war, genocide, natural disasters etc. It was one of the organisations that helped formulate the Geneva Conventions. Thank God it's around.

Also, PP, I am getting very vexed and disturbed by this parrot response that many Muslims seem to have: "Well, what about our brothers and sisters in ?" For some reason they believe that injustice + injustice = justice.

Muslims should make positive contributions to whatever country they're living in (as many of us have done). That is also a principle of Islam. Concern for the Muslim ummah is a sign of iman --- but it doesnt just mean the Muslim ummah in Palestine or Iraq or Kashmir. It also means concern for the Muslim ummah in this country.

MC --- Why don't you change the pictures and slogans? How about "Muslim, British & Proud"? Perhaps most Muslims these days would rather not be identified as being Muslim... How about a "Free Palestine" range of t-shirts similar to the "Free Tibet" ones...

But if I am to be absolutely honest, it would be a very called day in hell before I absconded to patriotism. Fighting a crime and injustice is one thing, but patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel. It does not help us in any way to reach the objective truth and to reconcile communities in the UK.