Hijabi, I wish I had more knowledge =/ , actually I wish I had started studying earlier. Knowledge is the fundemental thing in Islam that will keep us close to our deen. Rasulullah (S) has said: "When Allah wants good for someone , he gives him knowledge and the understanding of Islam"

mamad, you have made a valid point. I think all the division is due to lack of knowledge. Ignorance is what keeps up seperate. I dont think any Muslim believes that Allah is cruel, how ever He is Just and Fair. Sometimes being Just and Fair may make Him sound cruel, but it is beyond our comprehension in my opinion. Mamaad I just disagree with one thing, you said: "At the end of the day, conservatives and liberals are fighting for the same cause, i.e: Islam, but have different takes on what a religion and its 'ideology' should be." I think that at the end of the day, the Traditionals want to keep Islam the way it is, and the liberals want to change Islam to meet their standards. It is a struggle between those who dont want change and those who do.

The problem that I see with the way Islam is practiced today, is not that Islam isn't a complete religion. As a Muslim I believe it is. I think the problem is with religious knowledge. We all pick and choose who we learn from and according to our historic background and life experiences either something makes sense to us or doesn't. I personally don't believe in a cruel God, but a loving one. I believe in a loving God who will understand that religion can be interpreted in many ways. The interpretation depends on the time and space, and our cognitive ability. That is why divisions occur. At the end of the day, conservatives and liberals are fighting for the same cause, i.e: Islam, but have different takes on what a religion and its 'ideology' should be.

exactly

I agree with that, to if you want to be gay and all that stuff, dont do it in the name of Islam.

i dont get it.. so like.. if they do all that (allowing gays to have their sect of islam, allow drinking of alcohol, promoting femenism.. etc), should they just NOT be muslims? i dont get this liberal muslims thing.. youre either muslim and embrace the truth behind islam.. or youre just not... whats with accommodating islam to fit individuals?

I'm more in agreement with F-dog here, but Raid's point is still well taken. I wouldn't go so far as to say they let subversive beliefs persist, but in general, there is more tolerance here in the US than elsewhere. But Ali Tamimi's case reminds us that the tolerance here is not unlimited. His case is exceptional because he's a "prize catch," a "big fish," and a powerful political statement for the Bush administration. He was in a position of prominence, and Muslims looked up to him. By convicting him, the government intends to send a message to the rest of us, to be careful about what we say. The entire "Virginia 11" cases last year were, in my opinion, a pretext to get Sh. Tamimi. This country has an illustrious history of tolerance, but it also has a darker side of oppression and erosion of civil liberties during times of conflict.

Fdoc, I don't know who that is but i'll google him tomorrow and get back to you.

subhanallah F-dog.... I am glad you mentioned him. I had a chance to meet the brother and subhanallah. You konw waht he said? He said "if I get convicted, it is the Qadar of Allah SWT. I can worship him the same in Jail or outside of jail" I was soo amazed, usually a man lookin at prison yet alone a life sentence woudl be saying other things, but subhanallah he has the Iman to think of Allah even in these times. May Allah return him to us soon. Ameen. Also do not forget Imam Jamil.

lol at raid ....within certain limits....i have 2 words :ali tammimi

that is the beauty of this country we arent talkin about that, we are talkin about whatts good for a muslim and bad for a muslim. In this country you can get a loan if you dont have money, it may seem good but it deals with intrest..is it good or bad in the eyes of ISlam?

AIM, the beauty of this country is that they let even subversive beliefs to persist. Contrarily, I don't think any current muslim government would allow you to speak against it in such a manner.

Fdog, i was trying to show you that everyone can make generalizations.

cheers aim

I have read all the comments and alhamdulillah it sparaks good questions. In my opnion that I derived from listing to Shyakh Ut-thaymeen, Shaykh Yaser Berjas, Shaykh Yaser Qadhi, and Shaykh Ali Tamimi. There are no "liberalism" in Islam. When it comes to the shariah taht is. I mean yes we have the liberty to choose what we wear, who we marry, but looking through the eyes of some one god fearing, they would make the choices in according to the Quran and Sunnah for Allah is the Judge. If oyu look at liberalism, they may not premote a certian belief (but in my opinino they do because they premoting the idea of accepting every on everyone and everything which is a differnt way of life), but by not standing up against it, they are accepting it. If we look at the Sunnah of Rasulullah, whenever he agreed to something he remained silent. So from this we learned that silence is acceptance. In the Quran we come across many times where Allah has said "enjoin the good and forbid the evil". What does this mean? It mean it is our duty to give dawaah and stand up against those things which are against Islam. Allah has said in the Quran, " An enemy of Allah is and enemy of a believer". How can one believe allah is Rabb (Lord) and accept another idea of governing, or another shariah. This simple fact negatest the acceptance of ruboobiyya (That Allah is the Lord of everthing) which is one of the three parts of Iman. Islam has laid down basic principals and a person would not like to change it unless he/she believes that there is something incomplete about it. As far Muslims in Kaffir governments, well many Uelema have declared it kuffar. In my opinion it is a bit extreme to call it kuffar because we do not know their intentions. They might be doing it for the sake of Islam , but if they are doing it believing those governments have the sole power of legislation, it becomes shirk because they ascribing an an attribute (the Legislator) of Allah SWT to other beings. But between a person who calls it kuffar and a person who involves himself, the person who calls it kuffar has a better understanding of the Aqeedah (creed), in my opinion. I also think that anyone who has the proper udnerstanding of aqeedah would think it is foolish to become involved in a Kuffar government. In America we have seen this happen. A group of peopel thought it would be better to vote for bush 4 years ago becuase Liberman was a jew, but look what happeend. In my opinion, anyone who tries to change even the smallest of Islam is considered a liberal. Wa Allahu Alam.

Well raid..there is no femenism in islam or any isms...the muslim congress in canada now supports same sex marriagehttp://www.muslimcanadiancongress.org/, people like Irshad manji and some others have started a gay muslim group in toronto, there are people on naseeb who wants to change we pray instead of reciting it in arabic, he wants to do it in english. Or they pray kneeling on thier bed and talking to god??!!? Or some would drink right after juma or better yet stop drinking during the month of ramadan! So these are some examples I faced and observed thru out my years.

raid a lot of traditionalists dont have violent urges to destroy those that disagree with them either as you imply.

There is a difference between a liberal and a progressive Muslim. To me, as a Muslim there are certain things that are clearly haram or halal. As Zz said, the key is education. More people in Muslim countries must receive a propper education provided for by the state. Kids must remain in school till they're at least 16, and there should be enough child support/welfare to ensure that. This is the meaning of a progressive ideal to me.

I don't remember electing her to represent me. It's a publicity stunt, yes. And God has given you rationality (I hope)...so if you don't disagree with her, don't buy into it. Don't use her as an example to represent all liberals. If you do that, what's stopping others to use Taliban as a representative for the traditionalist movement.