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Resonate your identity with Naseeb journals. Express your opinions, share your thoughts, post your writings and connect with like minded people through the power of expression.
Resonate your identity with Naseeb journals. Express your opinions, share your thoughts, post your writings and connect with like minded people through the power of expression.
Why Shia can claim IMAM is infallible?
The first part of the Verse 59th of Surah Nesa' (5:59) says:
O Believers! Obey Allah, and obey the messenger of Allah and Olelamr.
What does this imply?
If you obey Olelamr you actually have obeyed the messenger of Allah and if you obey the messenger of Allah you have obey Allah. All in one line leading to Allah.
The command to obey is infinite-total obedience in all material, religious and spiritual matters.
Obey Allah to reach Allah, obey Messenger of Allah to reach Allah, Obey Olelamr to reach Allah.
Now:
If Allah is just and wise and makes no mistake then his true Khalifa on earth should be also wise and just. Otherwise how Allah can be just by asking people to obey a person who is not just, who is not wise and commits mistake and misleads people?(Considering that there is only one path of truth and rightness)
So the person whom Allah orders us to obey should be infallible. Messenger of Allah is infallible and does not commit mistake and same goes to Olelamr. Olelamr are infallible.
Olelamr are not an ordinary persons who some how grap the opportunity to be in charge. People do not have the ability to distinguish who is infallible and who is not. Only infallible can tell who else is infallible. So only Messenger of Allah can say who are Olelamr. Only he can say who is in charge after him.
Now you conclude one more thing yourself from these AHAADITH from Ahle Sunnah texts:
Omar says:
Had Ali not been there Omar would have died
Among us Ali is the best person to be the judge
Omar takes refuge to Allah from a tough situation where Ali is not there
Ahle Sunnah people cannot (and do not) claim that their leaders are infallible. They cannot (and do not) claim that Prophet Muhammad specified their names as his successor. They are not Olelamr. Whereas Shia people do claim their imams are Olelamr and infallibales.
To help you understanding the verse better I would like to elaborate more what I said before:
Matters of believers are two types and can be categorized as below:
1- Governmental affairs (on going affairs related to the society of believers such as political, cultural, judicial, war, etc.)
1.1. The basics of how to deal with governmental affairs were established by Messenger of Allah
1.2. Most of the governmental affairs are time-location-situation dependant and for that unprecedented and new matters
2- AHKAAM e DIN (religious verdicts)
2.1 By Allah in Quran
2.2 By Hadith of the Prophet
2.3 Situations not been addressed by Quran and Hadith of Prophet
The word of Obedience has been mentioned twice in the verse: one before Allah and one before Messenger. This shows there are two forms of obedience:
1- When order comes from Allah (Vah'i). This is type 2.1 in above categorization
2- When order comes from Messenger of Allah when there is no Vah'i. He decides based on his one knowledge, discretion or after consulting others and then says: "this is my order to you. This is type 1.1 and 2.2 in the above categorization.
As OLEAMR is connected to Messenger in the verse then it is the same form of obedience as Messenger of Allah:
He decides based on his one knowledge, discretion or after consulting others and then says: "this is my order to you
The second part of verse will show that for OLELAMR there is only category 1.2 and 2.3. It means full obedience to OLELAMR in governmental affairs is the duty of believers. For unprecedented and new matters (not at the level of government) which is category of 2.3 there is only one solution and that is to obey OLELAMR.
O Believers! Obey Allah, and obey the messenger of Allah and Olelamr.
What does this imply?
If you obey Olelamr you actually have obeyed the messenger of Allah and if you obey the messenger of Allah you have obey Allah. All in one line leading to Allah.
The command to obey is infinite-total obedience in all material, religious and spiritual matters.
Obey Allah to reach Allah, obey Messenger of Allah to reach Allah, Obey Olelamr to reach Allah.
Now:
If Allah is just and wise and makes no mistake then his true Khalifa on earth should be also wise and just. Otherwise how Allah can be just by asking people to obey a person who is not just, who is not wise and commits mistake and misleads people?(Considering that there is only one path of truth and rightness)
So the person whom Allah orders us to obey should be infallible. Messenger of Allah is infallible and does not commit mistake and same goes to Olelamr. Olelamr are infallible.
Olelamr are not an ordinary persons who some how grap the opportunity to be in charge. People do not have the ability to distinguish who is infallible and who is not. Only infallible can tell who else is infallible. So only Messenger of Allah can say who are Olelamr. Only he can say who is in charge after him.
Now you conclude one more thing yourself from these AHAADITH from Ahle Sunnah texts:
Omar says:
Had Ali not been there Omar would have died
Among us Ali is the best person to be the judge
Omar takes refuge to Allah from a tough situation where Ali is not there
Ahle Sunnah people cannot (and do not) claim that their leaders are infallible. They cannot (and do not) claim that Prophet Muhammad specified their names as his successor. They are not Olelamr. Whereas Shia people do claim their imams are Olelamr and infallibales.
To help you understanding the verse better I would like to elaborate more what I said before:
Matters of believers are two types and can be categorized as below:
1- Governmental affairs (on going affairs related to the society of believers such as political, cultural, judicial, war, etc.)
1.1. The basics of how to deal with governmental affairs were established by Messenger of Allah
1.2. Most of the governmental affairs are time-location-situation dependant and for that unprecedented and new matters
2- AHKAAM e DIN (religious verdicts)
2.1 By Allah in Quran
2.2 By Hadith of the Prophet
2.3 Situations not been addressed by Quran and Hadith of Prophet
The word of Obedience has been mentioned twice in the verse: one before Allah and one before Messenger. This shows there are two forms of obedience:
1- When order comes from Allah (Vah'i). This is type 2.1 in above categorization
2- When order comes from Messenger of Allah when there is no Vah'i. He decides based on his one knowledge, discretion or after consulting others and then says: "this is my order to you. This is type 1.1 and 2.2 in the above categorization.
As OLEAMR is connected to Messenger in the verse then it is the same form of obedience as Messenger of Allah:
He decides based on his one knowledge, discretion or after consulting others and then says: "this is my order to you
The second part of verse will show that for OLELAMR there is only category 1.2 and 2.3. It means full obedience to OLELAMR in governmental affairs is the duty of believers. For unprecedented and new matters (not at the level of government) which is category of 2.3 there is only one solution and that is to obey OLELAMR.
Comments on this journal
do you understand the premise of democracy... i.e. one creates CHECKS AND BALANCES within government so to provide a measure in which a people in power do not BECOME SELF-SERVING....
it was under the pretense of 'divine rule, i.e. people were chosen by God to rule, that people created a system within government to check this gross abuse of power...
the whole tale of history proves the exact opposite that divine appointment has solved this problem of 'age-old' exploitation by those in power... this is precisely why the Quran makes it clear that the people mnust also enjoin the good and forbid the evil, and that the best jihad is to speak a truthful word in front of a tyrant...
the people within society, as even secularistic view of democracy maintains, must be aware of their government and constantly monitor them... like the beduoin said to Umar (R), if we see you swerving from Allah and His Messenger, we will correct you by the swrod...
this is precisely why, in the Quran, if people had disputes amongst themselves, and they could not resolve them, they were told to "refer it to Allah and His Messenger"... they go to the Prophet (S) to judge their affairs....
really, it's not that complex
Should I go on???
There are countless examples in the Quran where a particular injunction is initiated with the phrase "O Belivers", altough it relates to a particular people...
"O YOU WHO BELIEVE, Qisas is prescribed for you..."
Everybody knows that Qisas is implemented by the STATE, not the normal everyday citizen...
This is just one example of man, and if this is the extent opf your argument, than really you have a LONG WAY TO GO..
Is this a typical view point of a person who believes that religion got nothing to do with governing the Muslims nation?
What did I say Ahooe?
Thus, while Ahlus-Sunnah accepts that the Imam MUST RULER THROUGH MUTUAL CONSULTATION IN THOSE MATTERS NOT EXPRESSLY DICTATED AS RELIGION, it also puts conditions on a situation when their is an OPPRESSIVE RULER.
What does NOT expressly dictated as religion mean? And even the shia in Iran had to get rid of the concept of imamate from apractical point of view, and raise the issue of IJTIHAD...
The whole point is Allah does not order people to follow a corrupt ruler. He orders the believer to follow up a ruler who does not do any wrong doing. For that only Allah knows who is absolutely clean inside with no evil doing, people cannot see such thing.
Oh wow... so than what's the need for consultation once again?
Please read the Ayeh and the article carefully again. It says to follow the Olelamr and has not made any exception.
You keep contardicting yourself.. TAA is not attached to those in authority, because this TAA is qualified with IF YOU DIFFER WITH ANYTHING REFER IT BACK TO ALLAH AND HIS MESSENGER...
It means the people can differe with the ULUL AMR.. if there is an IMAM, who is he differing with?
It seems that you do not understand...
How can one claim infallibility of an imam, when Allah clearly states that believers can DIFFER? If they were an Imam, according to shia thought, than they would never differ, because they are INFALLIBLE. Yet, the Quran immediately states that IF YOU DIFFER, REFER IT BACK TO ALLAH AND HIS MESSENGER.
Did you really read what I wrote on 24th of March? The Ayeh is addressing believers, it is not addressing Allah, nor his prophet and nor Olelamr. It has been said for you and me. It is saying that if you and I have issue between us you should settle it down based on what has been said for that occasion by Allah in Quran or by his prophet in Hadith.
Or let me put it this way, probably you do not need bother Imam and waste his time for something already been said by Allah or his prophet.
You follow Imam as the leader of the nation of mankind same way people followed the Prophet 1400 years ago as the ruler of the society.
So is it according to the teaching of Islam? To follow a corrupt ruler?
Further, the principle of Ahlus-Sunnah is that because the PEOPLE AGREE TO THE RULER, it RESULTS IN STABILITY. Even an 'oppressive ruler' is better than a total state of ANARCHY.
It has NOTHING TO DO WITH THE RELIGIOUS SOURCES OF ISLAM. This is the fundamental difference between shia thought and sunni thought.
Thus, while Ahlus-Sunnah accepts that the Imam MUST RULER THROUGH MUTUAL CONSULTATION IN THOSE MATTERS NOT EXPRESSLY DICTATED AS RELIGION, it also puts conditions on a situation when their is an OPPRESSIVE RULER.
The latter has nothing to do with PROCEDURE OF GOVERNMENT according to Ahlus-Sunnah.
Is this a typical view point of a person who believes that religion got nothing to do with governing the Muslims nation? If yes then I agree with you, there is a fundamental difference between you and me, for that I believe the ruler will be holding the position once belonged to the Prophet. Same criteria for being a ruler at the time of Prophet are still applicable to the time after his death. Allah does not differentiate between people of that time and people after that. Islam covers all the aspect of human's life including politics and governments.
Do you actually UNDERSTAND what you are saying? If you are trying to justify absolute obedience to those in power, than you HAVE NO REASON TO OBJECT TO THE FOLLOWING:
"When a corrupted governor is in place and the citizen are ignorant believers and have no objection to the way he rules. (Imagine the time of Muawiyah or Yazid Ben Muawiyah and people of Shaam) As you can see citizens and the governor do not differ on anything and the obedience is there. Is this what exactly what Allah means in the verse?"
They HAVE NO CHOICE TO OBEY THE LEADERS.
My dear! did you actually understand what I said? Probably you did not want to read it in a way to understand it. Who is trying to justify absolute obedience to any one in power? If you thought I am trying to conclude such it is because you did not read carefully what I said. Let me spell it out once more.
It is not " To Follow Any One in Power", it is "to follow only designated person".
The whole point is Allah does not order people to follow a corrupt ruler. He orders the believer to follow up a ruler who does not do any wrong doing. For that only Allah knows who is absolutely clean inside with no evil doing, people cannot see such thing.
Step back for a moment. Your losing focus here. You are trying to use this verse to establish IMAMATE.
Yes, why not? The whole idea is around Imamate. What does Imamate mean? Leadership of a nation; when a nation follows a man appointed by Allah. This is the whole idea.
Khalidi said:
Actually, this is incorrect. The dilemma is NOT RESOLVED according to the shia school of thought, because, according to them, the imamate is INFALLIBE. Shia thought is based upon the notion that there is a NEED FOR AN IMAM to INTERPRET religion.
My dear, this is wrong. Shia believes that there is a need for an Imam to lead the nation. If things have already been said by Allah or his Prophet do you think Imam will say something different? No, of course not, he will highlight or remind the nation of such things.
Please read the Ayeh and the article carefully again. It says to follow the Olelamr and has not made any exception. If it wanted it would used the similar wording as the following Ayeh:
And We have enjoined on man goodness to his parents, and if they contend with you that you should associate (others) with Me, of which you have no knowledge, do not obey them, to Me is your return, so I will inform you of what you did.
Khalidi said:
Once again for you:
Where is the Imamate in this verse?
Once again read what I wrote. The whole idea is Imamate if you know its definition.
so I take it you now believe Muawiya (R) had superpowers... he had an innate ability to forcefully change jumuah to Wednesday over a terriotry that covered thousands of miles, without the Muslim world even putting up any resistance...
Do you actually UNDERSTAND what you are saying? If you are trying to justify absolute obedience to those in power, than you HAVE NO REASON TO OBJECT TO THE FOLLOWING:
"When a corrupted governor is in place and the citizen are ignorant believers and have no objection to the way he rules. (Imagine the time of Muawiyah or Yazid Ben Muawiyah and people of Shaam) As you can see citizens and the governor do not differ on anything and the obedience is there. Is this what exactly what Allah means in the verse?"
They HAVE NO CHOICE TO OBEY THE LEADERS.
Further, the principle of Ahlus-Sunnah is that because the PEOPLE AGREE TO THE RULER, it RESULTS IN STABILITY. Even an 'oppressive ruler' is better than a total state of ANARCHY.
It has NOTHING TO DO WITH THE RELIGIOUS SOURCES OF ISLAM. This is the fundamental difference between shia thought and sunni thought.
Thus, while Ahlus-Sunnah accepts that the Imam MUST RULER THROUGH MUTUAL CONSULTATION IN THOSE MATTERS NOT EXPRESSLY DICTATED AS RELIGION, it also puts conditions on a situation when their is an OPPRESSIVE RULER.
The latter has nothing to do with PROCEDURE OF GOVERNMENT according to Ahlus-Sunnah.
If you differ among anything, than refer to back to Allah and His Messenger.
Now how they are supposed to solve the matter? Has Allah or his messenger specified any where that if Mr. A becomes governor of XYZ do this and do not do that?
The dilemma cannot be solved by such interpretation of the verse by Ahlesunnah.
Actually, this is incorrect. The dilemma is NOT RESOLVED according to the shia school of thought, because, according to them, the imamate is INFALLIBE. Shia thought is based upon the notion that there is a NEED FOR AN IMAM to INTERPRET religion. Now, once again:
How can one claim infallibility of an imam, when Allah clearly states that believers can DIFFER? If they were an Imam, according to shia thought, than they would never differ, because they are INFALLIBLE. Yet, the Quran immediately states that IF YOU DIFFER, REFER IT BACK TO ALLAH AND HIS MESSENGER.
So the ONLY UNDISPUTED AUTHORITY in religion, according to this verse, is GOD AND HIS PROPHET. It is NOT AN IMAM. If there is no express directive through revelation, the 'dilemma', according to AHLUS-SUNNAH, is resolved through MUTUAL CONSULTATION among the believers.
Once again for you:
Where is the Imamate in this verse?
Matters of believers are two types and can be categorized as below:
1- Governmental affairs (on going affairs related to the society of believers such as political, cultural, judicial, war, etc.)
1.1. The basics of how to deal with governmental affairs were established by Messenger of Allah
1.2. Most of the governmental affairs are time-location-situation dependant and for that unprecedented and new matters
2- AHKAAM e DIN (religious verdicts)
2.1 By Allah in Quran
2.2 By Hadith of the Prophet
2.3 Situations not been addressed by Quran and Hadith of Prophet
The word of Obedience has been mentioned twice in the verse: one before Allah and one before Messenger. This shows there are two forms of obedience:
1- When order comes from Allah (Vah'i). This is type 2.1 in above categorization
2- When order comes from Messenger of Allah when there is no Vah'i. He decides based on his one knowledge, discretion or after consulting others and then says: "this is my order to you. This is type 1.1 and 2.2 in the above categorization.
As word OLELAMR is connected to Messenger in the verse then it is the same form of obedience as Messenger of Allah:
He decides based on his one knowledge, discretion or after consulting others and then says: "this is my order to you
The second part of verse will show that for OLELAMR there is only category 1.2 and 2.3. It means full obedience to OLELAMR in governmental affairs is the duty of believers. For unprecedented and new matters (not at the level of government) which is category of 2.3 there is only one solution and that is to obey OLELAMR.
When a corrupted governor is in place and the citizen are ignorant believers and have no objection to the way he rules. (Imagine the time of Muawiyah or Yazid Ben Muawiyah and people of Shaam) As you can see citizens and the governor do not differ on anything and the obedience is there. Is this what exactly what Allah means in the verse?
A VALIAMR is a ruler of a country. He tries to appoint Mr. A the governor of state XYZ. Citizens of XYZ do not like Mr. A and would like not to accept him as their governor. So there is clash of opinions between believers and VALIAMR. It seems they are liable for the second part of the verse:
If you differ among anything, than refer to back to Allah and His Messenger.
Now how they are supposed to solve the matter? Has Allah or his messenger specified any where that if Mr. A becomes governor of XYZ do this and do not do that?
The dilemma cannot be solved by such interpretation of the verse by Ahlesunnah.
There is no contradiction if some one gives it a deep thought.
obedience to those in authority among you is a NATURAL RIGHT... this is specifically why they are appointed... to regulate human affairs..
But again Allah does not order us to obey mistakes then what ever Olelamr orders is 100% free of mistake
So much for infallibility...